Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Thread gallery
28
protectoroftherealm · 09/07/2024 20:27

@DianeAbbotsJamjars Still can't come back with an answer? Nothing I have just asked you was offensive yet you can't answer! You lack the ability for debate.

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 20:29

protectoroftherealm · 09/07/2024 20:27

@DianeAbbotsJamjars Still can't come back with an answer? Nothing I have just asked you was offensive yet you can't answer! You lack the ability for debate.

No point arguing with someone who is only concerned with a persons physical features. MNHQ are all over your posts. It is you who is incapable of respectful discussion.

Name5 · 09/07/2024 20:29

@californiaisdreaming i can answer as a prison visitor TW do not share a cell. There are no categories in women's prisons. I have sat in front of one of the most horrific baby murders whilst visiting a corporate fraudster. Women's prisons can be very violent.
However there are few rehabilitation projects happening in prison. Female offenders don't get the same second chances as male ex offenders. TW will find that out but convictions are not recorded on any GRC. As a pp said many revert to males on release. Nothing to do with being trans, everything to do with being a criminal.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/07/2024 20:29

protectoroftherealm · 09/07/2024 20:27

@DianeAbbotsJamjars Still can't come back with an answer? Nothing I have just asked you was offensive yet you can't answer! You lack the ability for debate.

Like pretty much every TRA on this thread.

WickedSerious · 09/07/2024 20:30

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 20:25

Its your posts that are falling foul of MN talk guidelines, take it up with them.

That's an 'I can't' then.

VickyEadieofThigh · 09/07/2024 20:30

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 18:58

No need to write in my opinion as these are all just opinions.

How come you find homosexuality understandable and acceptable but not that you can want to transition?

There are people with the kind of body dysmorphia that makes them feel they need an arm or a leg (or both) amputated.

I don't believe we should affirm them.

allaboardtheplaybus · 09/07/2024 20:30

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 16:39

Being trans is as much of a choice as being gay is. There should be more tolerance on here. True trans MTF arent trying to step on anyones rights, they simply want to transition into females.

Do those who wholeheartedly disagree accept a trans MTF who has had gender confirmation surgery as a woman?

You are still ignoring all the very real and valid points about safeguarding though? How do women/girls tell the difference between the “true trans” and the ones who are getting a “euphoria boner” from being in the ladie’s loo, or taking photos of their boner in the mirror of the women’s refuge, after walking past the other residents with it (and yes this has happened, I didn’t make it up)

protectoroftherealm · 09/07/2024 20:31

@DianeAbbotsJamjars Not asking you to 'argue', I'm asking you for debate. Like grown-ups. I'm asking you to explain the science behind your beliefs. But you can't because you don't know.

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 20:32

californiaisdreaming · 09/07/2024 20:25

@ArabellaScott
Do you have a survey link?

Women who've been to prison should be asked their option on having males in female prisons.

Women who've been to rape crisis should be asked their opinions on having males in female rape crisis centres.

Women who've been to women's shelters should be asked their opinions on having males in female shelters.

Here's a woman ex prisoner talking about the subject. Had to have a coil fitted because she was incarcerated with two transwomen in Scottish prison, and feared rape. It is distressing.

Name5 · 09/07/2024 20:35

Just to clarify I have no experience of Scottish prisons. My statements were made regarding English female prisons.

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 20:36

I can see the thread being deleted at this rate. MN wont stand for your hate, it's evident for all to see. You can talk about science as if you expect a scientific debate. Until science has answers, our government will decide on rights for the ts community and its great to see a more left leaning man like Starmer at the helm as more rights will come their way. And over time more acceptance into society. Other more intolerant parties were available.

nothingcomestonothing · 09/07/2024 20:37

allaboardtheplaybus · 09/07/2024 20:30

You are still ignoring all the very real and valid points about safeguarding though? How do women/girls tell the difference between the “true trans” and the ones who are getting a “euphoria boner” from being in the ladie’s loo, or taking photos of their boner in the mirror of the women’s refuge, after walking past the other residents with it (and yes this has happened, I didn’t make it up)

This one?

Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans
ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 20:37

Repeated assertions of 'hate' are meaningless when we can all read the thread.

murasaki · 09/07/2024 20:37

Again, what more rights do they need and/or want other than compelled thoughts?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/07/2024 20:38

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 20:36

I can see the thread being deleted at this rate. MN wont stand for your hate, it's evident for all to see. You can talk about science as if you expect a scientific debate. Until science has answers, our government will decide on rights for the ts community and its great to see a more left leaning man like Starmer at the helm as more rights will come their way. And over time more acceptance into society. Other more intolerant parties were available.

Why would it be deleted?

Bewilderedandpowerless · 09/07/2024 20:39

@DianeAbbotsJamjars
Until science has answers, our government will decide on rights for the ts community

Hate to burst your bubble, but science already has answers about, you know, the difference between men and women. The shit show that we’re witnessing has nothing to do with science.

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 20:39

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/07/2024 20:38

Why would it be deleted?

Several posts from several posters have been removed already.

protectoroftherealm · 09/07/2024 20:41

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 20:36

I can see the thread being deleted at this rate. MN wont stand for your hate, it's evident for all to see. You can talk about science as if you expect a scientific debate. Until science has answers, our government will decide on rights for the ts community and its great to see a more left leaning man like Starmer at the helm as more rights will come their way. And over time more acceptance into society. Other more intolerant parties were available.

Erm science does have answers. Unequivocal, factual, scientific answers!

californiaisdreaming · 09/07/2024 20:42

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 20:35

Here's a rape survivor talking about her experience with a male in a support group.

https://unherd.com/2022/07/why-im-suing-survivors-network/

:O

This is horrific.

WickedSerious · 09/07/2024 20:42

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 20:36

I can see the thread being deleted at this rate. MN wont stand for your hate, it's evident for all to see. You can talk about science as if you expect a scientific debate. Until science has answers, our government will decide on rights for the ts community and its great to see a more left leaning man like Starmer at the helm as more rights will come their way. And over time more acceptance into society. Other more intolerant parties were available.

Men have plenty of rights already.

Hankunamatata · 09/07/2024 20:44

Drfosters · 09/07/2024 15:49

Exactly as a bloke you have no idea what it is like to be woman. It is not just make up and dresses

we are inherently wary. Every women is brought up with personal safety on their mind. We are told not to wear revealing clothing (that means we are asking for it), don’t walk alone at night, don’t put yourself in risky situations. How many of us were given ‘rape’ alarms when younger. How many of us carry keys in our hand if we find ourselves alone just in case we need to have something hard to fight back. How many of us have been touched inappropriately on public transport? Every single women makes an assessment of every single man we meet. We might not realise we are doing it but I promise we do. We avoid men who give off ‘vibes’ even if it turns out that person is harmless. We are taught to get out of circumstances that make us uncomfortable. men have absolutely no idea every single one of us does this on a daily basis.

so if I am in a changing room and a biological man starts to get changed- yes I inherently seem them as a threat. They might be harmless and I accept they probably are just like the man following me down a dark path on the way home probably is but you bet my inherent tendency of self preservation will kick in and I will be out of there just as I would run home from that innocent man walking home from work.

telling women they need to stay in an uncomfortable situation in order to ‘be kind’ overrides everything we have been taught from a young age. Changing rooms and toilets (areas where women are vulnerable due to state of undress and lack of exit points) should be spaces where women can enter without fear

Edited

Totally this. Girls are raised differently and to be more cautious.

I do think that some transwomen (well the ones iv met who havnt had bottom surgey ) are sensible. They use disabled toilets mainly and often same in the gym as they don't want to make women feel uncomfortable. Not all transwomen demand to invade women's spaces

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 20:44

Bewilderedandpowerless · 09/07/2024 20:39

@DianeAbbotsJamjars
Until science has answers, our government will decide on rights for the ts community

Hate to burst your bubble, but science already has answers about, you know, the difference between men and women. The shit show that we’re witnessing has nothing to do with science.

Edited

Maybe science transcending the physical and focusing on the mental. It was only the 1970s conversion therapy was still taking place for homosexuals. But thankfully acceptance took over, and the same will happen in time with the trans community to allow them to transition to their chosen gender. Im sure many on here see it as a fetish for strange men, and Im sure in some cases of CDs that is true, but please do not tar all of the community with the same brush.

Helleofabore · 09/07/2024 20:45

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 14:11

The trans issue is the exact opposite of the gay rights fight.

Gay people were asking to be accepted for who they are.

Trans people are attempting to get everyone to affirm they are something they're not.

Gay rights didn't require other people to compromise their rights to accommodate them.

Indeed.

Maybe it is better to look at the difference as one of legitimate and illegitmate discrimination. And actually equality too.

People who are same sex attracted (or to both sexes) were subject to illegitimate discrimination when people declared they should not access toilets of the same sex for example. For clarity: male people accessing male toilets if they were a homosexual male. They were not asking for special treatment under any safeguarding principles or indeed, in life. They were asking, and rightfully so, for EQUAL treatment and equal protection.

This applies for accessing marriage and many other things that homosexual and bisexual people rightfully campaigned for.

Male people demanding access to female single sex spaces are demanding ADDITIONAL accommodations be made because of their gender identity. This is not a demand for EQUALITY. Why? Because those male people are expecting their philosophical belief to be affirmed by society. Even worse, they are expecting this when it directly conflicts with the rights of other groups.

It was always wrong to deny a person who was homosexual or bisexual access to a facility that matched their sex when that discrimination was based on their sexual orientation.

For instance, one group of male people have no extra rights over other male people in demanding that they have privacy involving being completely separated from other male people in a facility designated as single sex for male people. Again, singling out same sex or both sex attracted people to be excluded, would be illegitimate discrimination.

This is, of course, not the case for excluding all male bodies from female single sex spaces, except for male children under a particular age who would require care from a female person.

It is NOT wrong to exclude male people from a female single sex space because they are male.

There is a necessary form of discrimination that is used for calculating safeguarding risks which is based on sexed bodies. It is legitimate. The only 'negative' impact it has is to exclude one sex from a space designated as single sex for safety purposes. This discrimination has been the basis of sex segregated spaces since those spaces became available to public life.

Male bodies are excluded from female single sex spaces also on the grounds of privacy and dignity. Not just safety.

Homosexual male people were wrongfully discriminated against based on no statistical evidence at all, just prejudice. This has now, rightfully, been prevented with law.

In regards to homosexual male people, for example, accessing a changing room, the comparator should start with 'does one group of male people have a lower risk profile compared to ALL other male people in the UK' ?

The answer for gay male people is 'no' and it was likely always no. Besides, they were not seeking unequal treatment.

If you are arguing that any male person over about 8 should be included in any single sex female space, you should need to provide evidence that the group of male people you are advocating for have not just a lower risk of committing sex crime than all other male people in the UK. You also need to provide evidence that they commit sex crime at the same or lower rate than all female people in the UK.

It is NOT wrong to exclude male people from a female single sex space because they are male. I think some people view 'discrimination' as always wrong whereas many of us know, discrimination can be negative, neutral and positive and negative discrimination can be legitimate to achieve positive outcomes in some circumstances.

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 20:46

Hankunamatata · 09/07/2024 20:44

Totally this. Girls are raised differently and to be more cautious.

I do think that some transwomen (well the ones iv met who havnt had bottom surgey ) are sensible. They use disabled toilets mainly and often same in the gym as they don't want to make women feel uncomfortable. Not all transwomen demand to invade women's spaces

Decent men and decent transwomen understand and respect women's needs for single sex services and rights.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread