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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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28
Helleofabore · 09/07/2024 18:53

Baital · 09/07/2024 16:57

It seems odd to me that people who say mtf shouldn't use women's spaces because biological sex trumps everything, also argue that ftm must not use women's spaces because they present as men.

It's either one or the other.

Either everyone uses the toilets assigned by birth biological sex, or we need to reconsider and be more nuanced.

It is not 'one or the other. That is just your absolutist take on the topic.

We have been told by numerous female trans people who have taken testosterone, who understand that in doing so they will take on male cues to their face and body, that they understand that their decision to do this means that their appearance may cause other female people distress.

Your absolutist take misses a significant point. The male cues in a male body do not disappear with hormones and surgeries because it comes down to skeletal proportions and facial proportions as well as voice. Male people cannot change their gait for instance. Hair line is another factor, although some male people attempt to disguise this.

Female people taking testosterone do develop some male facial cues that can cause others distress.

Those female people who come onto FWR acknowledge their choice to take testosterone and they also tell us that they then choose to find alternative solutions to their needs rather than enter female single sex spaces. Even if they are welcomed into female single sex spaces, on account that they are female.

Of course, female people who have not taken testosterone do not have those percieved male cues.

So. No. It is not 'one or the other'. It shows you have a very simplistic understanding of the issue to state that it is 'one or the other'.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/07/2024 18:55

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 18:52

@TheKeatingFive I disagree, I believe you can be born in the wrong body. As I say, its not dissimilar to me to homosexuality. We as humans arent designed to be homosexual neither are we designed to change into a different gender. But that's not to say that some people feel that way and wish to live that way. To just say men are men and women are women and thats the way it is is shortsighted.

No one is born in the wrong body. You can feel more comfortable wearing things stereotypically associated with the other sex, such as wearing dresses, but that will never make you the opposite sex. You would just be a man who wears dresses, or make up, or high heels, or any other sexist stereotype.

You couldn’t ‘become’ a woman because a lot of women don’t wear dresses, heels or make up so it doesn’t define a woman and b) it’s impossible.

Tandora · 09/07/2024 18:56

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 18:42

It's not offensive to note that males are generally taller than females, don't be daft.

Well she didn’t say even say “generally” did she . Let’s put in in the context of other social groups - Would it be ok to pick out a particular ethnic group and offer a totalising and degrading commentary on their physical appearance presented as universal truth? Eg you can always spot a pygmie because they are so short.. ok? I don’t bloody think so.

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 18:57

HowardTJMoon · 09/07/2024 14:56

You can curl your lip about the bigotry of those talking about bearded men in miniskirts

Thanks for your permission. I'll continue doing just that. Just like thinking about the "Backs against the wall, lads, the poof's coming through" about a slightly effeminate lad in my class makes me curl my lip now and wish I'd said something then. Or the bigotry about "limp-wristed bum-boys" being in public toilets being an imminent danger to boys sharing the same space. Or the bigotry about supposed lesbian PE teachers ("but just look at her, she's got short hair and doesn't wear heels!") being an imminent danger to girls.

but if that is what they are protesting about wouldn’t you agree with them?

I'd try to work out how significant and realistic a concern it is before I'd agree or disagree. There are aspects of the trans debate about which I have so far only seen rhetoric, vitriol and slurs rather than sober analysis of facts. As stated previously, the slurs and stereotypes I've seen bandied about have largely pushed me away from digging in to the debate so far.

Are you ok with your teen daughters having to shower with boys, whether they want to or not?

I'll ask my daughter and get back to you.

Don't you dare project guilt about your own homophobia or cowardice onto women who are rape survivors, dv escapees, lesbians who've been called 'sexual racists', and mothers of vulnerable children.

You don't have the first clue.

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 18:58

Tandora · 09/07/2024 18:56

Well she didn’t say even say “generally” did she . Let’s put in in the context of other social groups - Would it be ok to pick out a particular ethnic group and offer a totalising and degrading commentary on their physical appearance presented as universal truth? Eg you can always spot a pygmie because they are so short.. ok? I don’t bloody think so.

Being comparatively short, or tall, is not 'degrading'. It's a neutral observation of fact.

ProfessorPeppy · 09/07/2024 18:58

Jumpingthruhoops · 09/07/2024 18:41

But people aren't what they 'say' they are.

We really must stop confusing facts with feelings. Biology (fact) trumps ideology (feelings) ANY day of the week.

Anyone who (still) has a penis - regardless of how they 'identify' - does not belong in women's spaces. The End.

I really don't understand what part of this concept people are struggling with...

Well yeah that’s exactly what I was saying right there Grin

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 18:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 18:53

To just say men are men and women are women and thats the way it is is shortsighted.

In your opinion. Other people clearly see it differently and value facts over ideology and emotional claims.

No need to write in my opinion as these are all just opinions.

How come you find homosexuality understandable and acceptable but not that you can want to transition?

XChrome · 09/07/2024 18:59

tralalaala · 09/07/2024 16:51

People are who they say they are and that's all you need to know. Please stop with the bigotry in our safe space thread.

I hope you'll take a different attitude if you get a private message proporting to be from a UN Peacekeeping soldier stationed abroad, a poor lonely soul who flatters and romances you incessantly and then asks for money for the trip home to see you. Or perhaps it will be an African Prince who needs the money to reclaim his Kingdom from his evil uncle. Or it might be a lawyer who says a distant relative left you money, and if you'll just pay a fee, you will receive the funds.
Or maybe it will be a phone call from your cell company/utility company demanding your credit card info to pay an outstanding bill or your services will be shut off.

I've had those kind of attempts made on me more times than I can count.
Because I know lots of people aren't who they say they are, all these attempts were unsuccessful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 19:00

Because it's a totally different issue Confused

Floorbard · 09/07/2024 19:01

How sad but boringly predictable that my comment saying transphobia =bigotry has brought out the transphobes who are upset that their hate isn’t accepted by everyone. Not going to engage with any of you, I honestly find it too depressing that so many people are ignorant and hateful towards minorities. Embarrassing behaviour from grown adults. I’ll be raising my children better than that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 19:01

@DianeAbbotsJamjars my last post was directed at you. Please don't presume to project your own blind spots onto me.

eatfigs · 09/07/2024 19:02

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 18:52

@TheKeatingFive I disagree, I believe you can be born in the wrong body. As I say, its not dissimilar to me to homosexuality. We as humans arent designed to be homosexual neither are we designed to change into a different gender. But that's not to say that some people feel that way and wish to live that way. To just say men are men and women are women and thats the way it is is shortsighted.

How does that work then, what is the mechanism for someone being born in the wrong body? What is actually going on?

murasaki · 09/07/2024 19:02

Floorbard · 09/07/2024 19:01

How sad but boringly predictable that my comment saying transphobia =bigotry has brought out the transphobes who are upset that their hate isn’t accepted by everyone. Not going to engage with any of you, I honestly find it too depressing that so many people are ignorant and hateful towards minorities. Embarrassing behaviour from grown adults. I’ll be raising my children better than that.

Bye then. I hope you'll raise your children to be capable of reasoned arguments rather than ideological twaddle, but hopefully they'll pick that up later in life.

IAmAWarriorPrincessHonestGuv · 09/07/2024 19:03

macaroniandcheeze · 09/07/2024 12:58

I think for the most part, most people are good people. I also think we should believe people when they tell us who they are.

I think that the fear mongering about trans woman is scarily similar to that of old homophobic propaganda.
I cannot imagine how hard it must feel sometimes just to want to live your life, do your job, etc, with the amount of fear and hate being directed at you and people like you.
I don’t believe anyone should feel unsafe, and no ones safety should be compromised. I believe that the issue of spaces, third spaces, safe spaces, separate spaces etc is too simplistic a way to approach what is a very complex issue. Our thinking and society is still very binary - women/men, us/them etc - but there isn’t going to be a binary black and white solution to a non binary problem.

It is a learning curve for society and decision makers and there are lots of grey areas, such as sport, prison, health provision, each of which should have some serious consideration by experts to find appropriate solutions that keep everybody safe and healthy with minimal risks.

I don’t think everyone yelling about toilets are really helping because it’s putting too much pressure on politicians and other powerful people to make snap comments that are not fully thought out and end up fuelling “debate”. I understand people are scared and worried but the validity of people’s lives should not be reduced to uneducated debate.

Edited

How do you think the women on the hospital ward felt when a trans identifying male spent his whole time on the ward accessing videos of child sex abuse?

Is this a ‘grey area’? Or entirely preventable distress caused to a number of female patients at their most vulnerable?

How many instances of entirely preventable distress and trauma to women should we tolerate as a society?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8521787/Paedophile-54-used-public-Wi-Fi-download-child-porn-hospital.html

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/07/2024 19:03

Floorbard · 09/07/2024 19:01

How sad but boringly predictable that my comment saying transphobia =bigotry has brought out the transphobes who are upset that their hate isn’t accepted by everyone. Not going to engage with any of you, I honestly find it too depressing that so many people are ignorant and hateful towards minorities. Embarrassing behaviour from grown adults. I’ll be raising my children better than that.

It’s like TRA bingo. Hateful ignorant transphobes stating facts! Even the announced flounce off! Full house.

Drfosters · 09/07/2024 19:05

Floorbard · 09/07/2024 19:01

How sad but boringly predictable that my comment saying transphobia =bigotry has brought out the transphobes who are upset that their hate isn’t accepted by everyone. Not going to engage with any of you, I honestly find it too depressing that so many people are ignorant and hateful towards minorities. Embarrassing behaviour from grown adults. I’ll be raising my children better than that.

What is your definition of transphobia? I think most people on this thread would say they are trans allies as per the title of the thread. They just have lines which cannot be crossed. I am pro trans but believe in single sex spaces/ single sex sport for instance.

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 19:05

It matters not what any of us think. Men who wish to be women will continue and our new Prime Minister will likely only further their rights.

Tandora · 09/07/2024 19:05

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 18:58

Being comparatively short, or tall, is not 'degrading'. It's a neutral observation of fact.

its not fact though, because there are plenty of women and trans men who are taller than plenty of men and trans women.
To declare it a universal fact is stereotyping.
Pygmy people are generally shorter in stature but to say “you can always spot a Pygmy because they are short” would is considered racist , because it is . Stereotyping of this nature directed at any social group is not ok. It’s offensive, degrading and phobic.

Anyway. Lord knows I don’t have the time for this. Tootaloo.

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 19:07

Sure, there are outliers. But on the whole, men are taller than women.

Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans
theilltemperedclavecinist · 09/07/2024 19:09

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 19:07

Sure, there are outliers. But on the whole, men are taller than women.

You bigot! Can't you see that the tallest people in that photo are both women! 😉

ETA Actually, is that what @Tandora is getting at? I'm so confused.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/07/2024 19:09

Tandora · 09/07/2024 19:05

its not fact though, because there are plenty of women and trans men who are taller than plenty of men and trans women.
To declare it a universal fact is stereotyping.
Pygmy people are generally shorter in stature but to say “you can always spot a Pygmy because they are short” would is considered racist , because it is . Stereotyping of this nature directed at any social group is not ok. It’s offensive, degrading and phobic.

Anyway. Lord knows I don’t have the time for this. Tootaloo.

Edited

Males and females have physical differences that allows us to tell them apart. Who knew this was offensive, degrading and phobic.

Lord I think A LOT don’t have time for this
constant nonsense being spouted.

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 19:10

I disagree, I believe you can be born in the wrong body. As I say, it's not dissimilar to me to homosexuality. We as humans arent designed to be homosexual neither are we designed to change into a different gender. But that's not to say that some people feel that way and wish to live that way. To just say men are men and women are women and thats the way it is is shortsighted.

I find this whole argument so extraordinary.

In what sense is it the 'wrong' body? Which aspects of it? Which aspects are right and which are wrong? How do you know? What happened to the 'right' body?

The homosexuality aspect is not even slightly comparable. Some humans have been homosexual since the dawn of time, just as we see with other mammals. Humans are mostly heterosexual with a minority being homosexual. Just like right and left handedness.

How this is comparable to 'being in the wrong body' I have no idea.

Pandadunks · 09/07/2024 19:11

The truth is - the people on the extremes scream at each other, being pretty unreasonable, and shitty about each other but most people lead their lives quietly in the middle somewhere.

eatfigs · 09/07/2024 19:13

IAmAWarriorPrincessHonestGuv · 09/07/2024 19:03

How do you think the women on the hospital ward felt when a trans identifying male spent his whole time on the ward accessing videos of child sex abuse?

Is this a ‘grey area’? Or entirely preventable distress caused to a number of female patients at their most vulnerable?

How many instances of entirely preventable distress and trauma to women should we tolerate as a society?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8521787/Paedophile-54-used-public-Wi-Fi-download-child-porn-hospital.html

Absolutely disgusting, and clearly a pattern - he was imprisoned a year later for sexually abusing a young girl:

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/man-who-now-identifies-woman-5890366

All the news media referring to him as a woman when these are the crimes of a man. Blatant lying and dishonesty, just to defer to this vile man's demands.

Woman jailed over historic sexual abuse

A decision will have to be made which prison Julie Marshall goes to

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/man-who-now-identifies-woman-5890366

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