Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

I am the mother of a son too and I don’t at all. I am teaching my son to understand that women feel vulnerable in many situations that a man just wouldn’t and this is something he should bear in mind as he grows into a man.

Not All Men, eh?

But an awful lot of men.

For instance, one third of women have been sexually harassed or assaulted on public transport.
https://www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/news/england/over-a-third-of-women-have-been-sexually-harassed-on-their-commute-to-work/

At what point do people have to comply with a person's philosophical belief based on post modernist theory that they are what they say they are?

Because when a male person states that they are a 'woman', they are doing either of two things. They are either rejecting being a 'man' which is based on their own stereotypes for what defines a 'man', or they are enforcing their belief of what defines a woman. The latter is misogynistic, because they are defining women and girls to be something other than female. All based on their own philosophical belief. When the material reality is that the only people who can be women and girls are female people, unless that philosophical belief is wedged into the definition.

And it is only ever a philosophical belief.

A male person can only ever live their own interpretation of how a female person, a woman, lives their life. Those male people calling themselves women are only ever male people calling themselves women. They are never experiencing life as a female, shaped by a lifetime of being a female dealing with living life in a body formed around the production of large gametes even if those gametes are not produced.

No person living in the UK is required to comply with someone's philosophical belief. To attempt to shame people for not complying with that philosophical belief is both totalitarian and authoritarian.

And we are talking about prejudice.

Not in my experience.

Mother of 3 wonderful sons, I find the man hate and stereotyping on Mumsnet deeply offensive, and regressive.

I also have a lovely son and a wonderful Male partner. I know they are good men and wouldn't hurt anyone. That doesn't mean that another woman should have to use the same toilets or changing room as them. Those other women do not know my son and partner are safe, and even if they did, it doesn't matter. I wouldn't want to get changed in front of my adult son and I'm damn sure he wouldn't want me to.

Good men don't take offence at women wanting single sex spaces and fairness in sport.

I wonder if that same principle works for other species. Can a female dog get born into a male dog's body? How would we tell? Perhaps a more bitchy woof.

What about hermaphrodites like earthworms? I guess they can't get laid into the wrong egg then, but I don't know for sure. Maybe one of the pro-trans experts on the thread can offer some insight.

But people aren't what they 'say' they are.

We really must stop confusing facts with feelings. Biology (fact) trumps ideology (feelings) ANY day of the week.

Anyone who (still) has a penis - regardless of how they 'identify' - does not belong in women's spaces. The End.

I really don't understand what part of this concept people are struggling with...

I'm not anti-trans in terms of individuals with that characteristic, but I am anti gender ideology as it's innately misogynistic and sexist. It's a men's rights movement with 'progressive' wrapping.

In order to make true that 'trans women are women' gender ideology denies/hugely minimises the reality of biological sex, so denying the impact of biological sex on women's lived experiences, such as the physical threat posed to females by males. Simultaneously it amplifies regressive gender stereotypes as the marker of 'woman'. Being a woman is obviously not about wearing a dress, or make up, or heels or 'feeling' soft and passive, or whatever other sexist stereotypes we thought we left back in the '70s. But the only way to square the circle of 'trans women are women' is to completely buy into those stereotypes and the idea that 'woman' is indeed a feeling or a costume that can be adopted by a man. As opposed to rejecting sexist stereotypes and expanding the bandwidth of being male and female, such as normalising being a more 'feminine' male.

The result is to make women less safe (no single sex spaces under this ideology), whilst reinforcing sexist stereotypes. In my lifetime we've gone from 'only girls can play with dolls' to 'girls and boys can play with dolls' to 'the child who plays with a doll is a girl'. That is not progress!

Yes, and I see transphobia as equal to any other form of bigotry, unlike many on this site who seem to think it’s acceptable.

It is a fact that men/males commit 98% of sexual violence and women and children are usually the targets

i also have a lovely son, brother, dad, brother in law. What exactly does that prove? Rape doesn’t happen because I don’t believe the men I know and love have committed it?

It's not offensive to note that males are generally taller than females, don't be daft.

The whole notion that "TWAW" is palpable nonsense.

Women and girls have suffered and continue to suffer oppression, discrimination and assault on the basis of our sex. Men who identify as women are not the same and any oppression, discrimination or assault they might suffer is not on the basis of their sex.

Women are not human shields for men, nor are the issues that negatively affect us the same.

If you see transphobia you should report it.

if however you think that stating facts and acknowledging biology and reality is “transphobic”, then you might end up dissatisfied with the moderation

I have no issue with the people I think of as the “old-school trans people” - the ones who had an attitude like, “May I please be considered an honorary member of your tribe? I know I’m not native-born to it, but I’m doing my best to learn your ways.” Like the Lady Chablis in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, who thought that seeing someone’s penis bulge in a tight dress was “nasty.” Women don’t have penis bulges, so if you want to be an honorary member of the tribe, don’t have one. I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure I remember the Lady Chablis referring to a young biological woman as “a real girl” in distinguishing her from the MtF people and drag queens. Chablis had no problem talking about growing up as a boy, or acknowledging that s/he wasn’t the same as biological women.

Then we got the new bunch of trans activists, who maintain that they already belong to the “tribe,” are probably “better” members than biological women, and accuse women of bigotry for not wanting to see a stranger’s naked penis. I’m not on board with those people. You can wear what you want, legally change your name to what you want, and ask people to call you by different pronouns. But you shouldn’t be able to force anyone to comply, and you need to acknowledge that other people have different belief systems that conflict with yours.

I think trans people should have their own designation on official documents and their own spaces in public to change clothes or use the restroom.

It's not a phobia, it's just the awareness that this is a delusion. Womanhood is not for cosplay.

Absolutely correct.

If the numbers are so low, why then do they have the entitlement to enter women's spaces? Why make any accommodations which make women feel less safe in order to satisfy a tiny minority?

What is transphobia, by your definition?

Stating fact, that transwomen are not women is seen as transphobia. Which is ridiculous.

I think trans people should have their own designation on official documents and their own spaces in public to change clothes or use the restroom.

Exactly. This is obviously the common sense approach. So why is it not being advocated for?

Trans women in "women-only" spaces somehow don't concern me. Rough calculation based on Census data indicates there are around 130k trans women in UK, 0.25% population.

One 'transwoman' has distressed and upset many women nurses by using their changing room.

One 'transwoman' can retraumatise and upset many women in prison.

One 'transwoman' GP can claim to be 'female' and then treat women who had asked specifically for a female GP.

Low numbers of transwomen can still impact on many women.

In my lifetime we've gone from 'only girls can play with dolls' to 'girls and boys can play with dolls' to 'the child who plays with a doll is a girl'. That is not progress!

It's the diametric opposite of progress. It could be said that this has come full circle in that 'the child who plays with dolls is a girl' takes us right back to the earlier assumption that 'only girls can play with dolls'.

Except the implications now go far beyond the mere banning of particular toys to effeminate boys. That's worse than regressive.

Transphobia obvs

And what would be transphobic?

@TheKeatingFive I disagree, I believe you can be born in the wrong body. As I say, its not dissimilar to me to homosexuality. We as humans arent designed to be homosexual neither are we designed to change into a different gender. But that's not to say that some people feel that way and wish to live that way. To just say men are men and women are women and thats the way it is is shortsighted.

Bit you haven't explained where the transphobia is, and MNHQ are pretty hot on deleting it, and I'm an sure they have someone monitoring this thread

To just say men are men and women are women and thats the way it is is shortsighted.

In your opinion. Other people clearly see it differently and value facts over ideology and emotional claims.