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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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28
murasaki · 09/07/2024 18:16

Their sex was observed at birth. Their gender was not assigned.

Frankly I wish gender could be got rid of. Sex is important, gender is flim flam.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 18:16

But this would leave them genderly homeless - no longer affiliated to the gender they were assigned at birth, but then not accepted by the gender they have transitioned into. In an inclusive society there has to be a way to accept such people.

Spaces segregated by sex shouldn't discriminate against males they perceive as "effeminate", no.

SoundTheSirens · 09/07/2024 18:17

Thefsm · 09/07/2024 17:38

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Trans gender fluid are whatever they identify with at that time.

no trans woman is trying to steal feminism and women’s rights. I hate that attitude. I hope all those with such attitudes did out with my generation and let the young people continue a world where we aren’t defined and limited by body parts.

And we have always been at war with Oceania.

Biffbaff · 09/07/2024 18:17

It's actually sad that a pro-trans thread has got derailed like this, but it is Mumsnet after all 🤷🏻‍♀️

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 18:19

You can't expect to slag other women off on the site and for them not to respond, sorry.

murasaki · 09/07/2024 18:20

Biffbaff · 09/07/2024 18:17

It's actually sad that a pro-trans thread has got derailed like this, but it is Mumsnet after all 🤷🏻‍♀️

Piffle.

eatfigs · 09/07/2024 18:21

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 18:14

To me, trans is a further extension of homosexuality, its a scale and at the extreme end are those that wish to fully transition to the opposite end. We can all accept that some gay men are very feminine in their size, style and views, and that some lesbians (e.g. England ladies football team) possess masculine traits like physicality, aggression, competitiveness. Some are "born in the wrong body". Now it seems we're all happy to accept this and draw the line here. But then why not understand that some people may be much further along the scale, and not be content to remain in the body in which they were born. They may wish to "transition" and effectively become the gender they feel they are. And you may say good for them, but they're not coming into my toilet etc. But this would leave them genderly homeless - no longer affiliated to the gender they were assigned at birth, but then not accepted by the gender they have transitioned into. In an inclusive society there has to be a way to accept such people.

How do the heterosexual males who identify themselves as women fit into this model?

SerafinasGoose · 09/07/2024 18:22

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 17:56

Needs help as in therapy to stick with the gender they were born with? Hows about having some compassion. That's like telling a lesbian to have conversion therapy.

You do realise some people arent doing this whole trans thing for fun or for a kink? They are women born into mens bodies or men born into womens bodies.

No one is, strictly speaking, born 'with' a gender. A more accurate analogy might be born into gender, since gender is a set of categories and social mores which, whilst only arbitrarily linked to biological sex, are deemed to be recognised conventions of masculine or feminine looks and behaviour. They exist independently of us and they precede our birth. To muddy the waters further, these conventions are both historically and geographically specific. They are ephemeral and shift with time. Feminine standards of the 1920s are not the same as those of today. Gender non-conformity in the 1980s, to cite another example, is recognisably different from that of today, and was possibly more freeing as it engaged in often quite creative gender-bending within the clear recognition of biological sex.

I suspect that in some sense gendered expectations have always existed in some form or other, and as long as they have existed there will have been people who have resisted them. What is unprecedented is the assumption that this meant they were 'really' the opposite sex and should therefore be treated legally or medically as belonging to that category; not least of insisting that no conflict of rights and safeguarding exists where it patently does, and that anyone who questions this in any way whatsoever should be forced to conform or else be threatened, sidelined, or lose their livelihoods.

As an ideology, gender to the exclusion of sex is regressive. It merely sticks a new label onto an old way of being, but imposes a good many more restrictions onto what that mode of being entails, not least as to how other people living in society should bend their own identities in order to hold up those stereotypes.

That's what is wrong with the twentieth-century brand of genderism as opposed to the trans discourses - if they can anachronistically be called such - of the past. I'd really like to see a return to such a position where there is less pressure placed on people, especially children, to conform with these new gendered stereotypes: because unfortunately, conformity is precisely what these demand. There must be a reason as to the high instances of autistic young people who turn to GI, but as to the medical transition of young people, we are only just beginning to see the potential effects of this and Cass is only the thin end of a very potentially dangerous wedge.

TheDogsAreInThePool · 09/07/2024 18:26

In an inclusive society there has to be a way to accept such people

Yes, as the sex they actually are.

HermioneWeasley · 09/07/2024 18:27

Just the latest from those vulnerable and marginalised trans women who just want to pee in peace.

Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans
Helleofabore · 09/07/2024 18:27

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 16:46

If India Willoughby walked into a ladies toilet when you were in there, would you consider that inappropriate?

Absolutely!

Tandora · 09/07/2024 18:27

macaroniandcheeze · 09/07/2024 12:58

I think for the most part, most people are good people. I also think we should believe people when they tell us who they are.

I think that the fear mongering about trans woman is scarily similar to that of old homophobic propaganda.
I cannot imagine how hard it must feel sometimes just to want to live your life, do your job, etc, with the amount of fear and hate being directed at you and people like you.
I don’t believe anyone should feel unsafe, and no ones safety should be compromised. I believe that the issue of spaces, third spaces, safe spaces, separate spaces etc is too simplistic a way to approach what is a very complex issue. Our thinking and society is still very binary - women/men, us/them etc - but there isn’t going to be a binary black and white solution to a non binary problem.

It is a learning curve for society and decision makers and there are lots of grey areas, such as sport, prison, health provision, each of which should have some serious consideration by experts to find appropriate solutions that keep everybody safe and healthy with minimal risks.

I don’t think everyone yelling about toilets are really helping because it’s putting too much pressure on politicians and other powerful people to make snap comments that are not fully thought out and end up fuelling “debate”. I understand people are scared and worried but the validity of people’s lives should not be reduced to uneducated debate.

Edited

What a truly wonderful post. Thank you 🌺

Drfosters · 09/07/2024 18:28

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 18:14

To me, trans is a further extension of homosexuality, its a scale and at the extreme end are those that wish to fully transition to the opposite end. We can all accept that some gay men are very feminine in their size, style and views, and that some lesbians (e.g. England ladies football team) possess masculine traits like physicality, aggression, competitiveness. Some are "born in the wrong body". Now it seems we're all happy to accept this and draw the line here. But then why not understand that some people may be much further along the scale, and not be content to remain in the body in which they were born. They may wish to "transition" and effectively become the gender they feel they are. And you may say good for them, but they're not coming into my toilet etc. But this would leave them genderly homeless - no longer affiliated to the gender they were assigned at birth, but then not accepted by the gender they have transitioned into. In an inclusive society there has to be a way to accept such people.

‘in an inclusive society there has to be a way to accept such people’.

but what does acceptance mean? Acceptance means something different to pretty much very single person on these threads. Acceptance from staunchly TWAW pro trans people seems to mean ‘women should override any feelings of self preservation and uncomfortableness, trans people’s feeling are far more important than yours’

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 18:29

Just the latest from those vulnerable and marginalised trans women who just want to pee in peace.

Oh yes, please welcome those males into all women's spaces!

bittertwisted · 09/07/2024 18:30

HermioneWeasley · 09/07/2024 18:27

Just the latest from those vulnerable and marginalised trans women who just want to pee in peace.

Are you aware there are good and bad people of every persuasion.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 18:30

@bittertwisted

Yes, we are aware of that, but there are a lot more of them in the male sex.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/07/2024 18:31

Biffbaff · 09/07/2024 18:17

It's actually sad that a pro-trans thread has got derailed like this, but it is Mumsnet after all 🤷🏻‍♀️

Derailed with facts, common sense and a sprinkling of reality.

murasaki · 09/07/2024 18:31

bittertwisted · 09/07/2024 18:30

Are you aware there are good and bad people of every persuasion.

And just like Schrodinger's rapist, we'd rather not leave it to chance, so I'd rather none in female spaces, thanks all the same

bittertwisted · 09/07/2024 18:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 18:30

@bittertwisted

Yes, we are aware of that, but there are a lot more of them in the male sex.

And we are talking about prejudice.

Not in my experience.

Mother of 3 wonderful sons, I find the man hate and stereotyping on Mumsnet deeply offensive, and regressive.

WickedSerious · 09/07/2024 18:34

Biffbaff · 09/07/2024 18:17

It's actually sad that a pro-trans thread has got derailed like this, but it is Mumsnet after all 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yeah,I'm all cut up about it.

Tandora · 09/07/2024 18:34

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 17:07

In real life I don't think FTM pass much better than MTF. Their smaller stature and body shape are dead giveaways.

Surely these kinds of offensive generalisations /stereotyping/ commentaries about trans people shouldn’t be allowed @mumsnet HQ?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 18:35

Not in my experience.

We're talking about the number of males threatening to rape women and laughing about how uptight they are, so I think you'll find your exemplary sons are not the issue.

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 18:35

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 17:56

Needs help as in therapy to stick with the gender they were born with? Hows about having some compassion. That's like telling a lesbian to have conversion therapy.

You do realise some people arent doing this whole trans thing for fun or for a kink? They are women born into mens bodies or men born into womens bodies.

Your body IS you. It's impossible to be born into the 'wrong' one.

I often wonder if people realise how religious this all sounds? That you somehow have a self and identity beyond the body, that you need to subscribe to a faith to believe in.

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 18:36

Tandora · 09/07/2024 18:34

Surely these kinds of offensive generalisations /stereotyping/ commentaries about trans people shouldn’t be allowed @mumsnet HQ?

What T&Cs would that be against?

XChrome · 09/07/2024 18:37

florrieatthevicarage · 09/07/2024 16:24

I think it's disrespectful to dress up as a woman and declare all women's things are now yours. It's colonisation

This is the intellectual level of discussion then. Oh dear. How silly.

Some of the transphobia here is appalling and I'm just going to report rather than engage further. So much for the trans positive thread.

IOW, what you cannot refute, you report.
Yes, your intellectual superiority is obvious. 🙄

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