Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

I think this articulates how I feel very clearly, thank you.

Those of you who call yourself trans allies:

Do you think it helps the trans people you care about to perpetuate the lie that women seeking safeguarding hate trans people and want to deny that they exist? That not believing in trans ideology = hating trans people and wanting to deny they exist?

Gently, do you think there could be another way forward for everyone to coexist in peace? Where safeguarding is understood and not seen as a personal attack? Where different beliefs are tolerated without insisting other believe the exact same? I think overall this would help trans people more.

Yes I would and have done. How is it bullying to say that a female believing they're male is delusional and needs help? I don't believe in lying and indulging delusion. My child is autistic and doesn't need these confusing messages in the world and I don't go along with them.

This is pretty much the jkr position.

I fully agree the two shouldn't be incompatible.

The transexuals I knew had a different belief system to me (personally I think humans should wear whatever clothes and hairstyles and learn to accept their bodies) BUT they also were 100% open and honest about being trans and being male despite full genital surgery.

This popular insistence on deception seems to be a more modern phenomenon and possibly aligns with an anti feminist post me too backlash.

Whether people think my child is "delusional" or not, it's what my child thinks that is important. It isn't a whim, or a game or peer pressure or social media or any other random reason that people have who won't accept it. He is who he is,

What is sad, is the abuse that he will get throughout life for no other reason than people dont understand or think he is "delusional ". Is it what I would have wanted? No. Has it taken me time to get used to the idea , oh yes.

Do I still fully get it? No.

But when I took him shopping for new clothes, new haircut etc, I saw him genuinely happy, smiling, happy to have his photo taken for the first time. As his mother, I want him to be happy with who he is. He has to live his life the way he wants to.

As for the thorny subject of toilets, changing rooms etc, he doesn't really want to use either, he would prefer unisex so that he doesn't draw attention to himself. At school they have thankfully facilitated that so it's easier for everyone.

@Youmeanyouvelostyourkey please don't be upset re the previous poster.
I posted on the last page of the first thread (last post because I read everything!)
Sadly TW will be featured in more horror stories that TM. I have only heard of two criminal cases involving TM who abused others.
I have walked your journey with my DD.
Time has been a huge healer and game changer. There are good people on mumsnet. I belong to a support forum and it has changed my life. Don't let the few stop you engaging.

@TheDogsAreInThePool
I have an autistic son
The number of times I've been told autism doesn't exist, it's an excuse for naughtiness, it's an excuse for bad parenting. I've made it up to make him special.

If anyone can identify with what the mother of a trans child is going through, it's me.

TheDogsAreInThePool
your child doesn’t need to hear you say that because someone lives differently to you and has a different opinion/ way of life that they’re delusional and sad. That is the thinking that leads to a less forgiving society that will make life harder for your child.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men.

A "trans woman" is literally any male who declares himself to be a woman, so can you understand why many people see this slogan as a religious mantra and a meaningless thought terminating cliche?

Needs help as in therapy to stick with the gender they were born with? Hows about having some compassion. That's like telling a lesbian to have conversion therapy.

You do realise some people arent doing this whole trans thing for fun or for a kink? They are women born into mens bodies or men born into womens bodies.

It is impossible to be born into the wrong body, it is yours.

I hope the PP's child is happier, but it is a delusion. And I hope doesn't go the way of Keira Bell.

They are women born into mens bodies or men born into womens bodies.

What do you mean?

Needs help as in therapy to stick with the gender they were born with? Hows about having some compassion. That's like telling a lesbian to have conversion therapy.

You do realise some people arent doing this whole trans thing for fun or for a kink? They are women born into mens bodies or men born into womens bodies.

It is nothing like telling a lesbian to have conversion therapy. Sexuality is very different to identity, so stop trying to make them the same or similar. People are straight, gay or bi, they are not born as trans. That is just sadly being a victim of our stereotyped/gendered society.

They are not born into the wrong bodies, they have just been messed up by gender ideology.

A lesbian doesn't need therapy to stop being a lesbian

And a boy doesn't need therapy to stop being a boy

They may want support to help them accept that they are lesbian or a boy

It is conversion to try and change someone to be something else - like surgery on a boy to make them look like a girl because conversion means change something

Wow, someone reported my post where I declared I was a trans ally. So I am just going to state again that I am a trans ally. You can't silence me even if you can't accept the truth about what and who you are, ie spiteful and transphobic. It's already illegal to be attacked in a toilet, and it's still more likely to be at the hands of a straight male despite the sign on the door. Get a grip of yourselves and stop punching down, accept there are people who are more vulnerable than you in our society and that they need our protection not our vilification. The GC brigade are absolutely pathetic.

For me, it's like that dress. I've fleetingly seen it as white and gold a couple of times, but once it flips to blue and black it never flips back. I had the same experience with 'Rose' in Doctor Who. Thought he was a woman until I didn't. Now can only see the man. I'm female and generally bad at faces.

There are no gendered souls, this thinking is madness.

There are male or female sexed bodies. And a million ways to live which should not involve mutilating surgeries.

Men are very rarely the most vulnerable members of society. Even when wearing make up and frocks. Women and children are.

And I do have compassion for these kids caught up in gender ideology. That's why I said they needed help and said it was sad. They are victims of this awful ideology and I feel sorry for them. That doesn't mean I will go along with their delusion because I think it's harmful to do so.

@Biffbaff

I very much doubt you were deleted just for proclaiming your "trans ally" status. Judging by this post your post was probably a personal attack on women on the thread, which is against talk guidelines.

genuine question- ‘why more vulnerable?’

@biscuitandcake you see me offering my opinion on a thread explicitly asking for such opinions as somehow me "correcting" you? How peculiar.

Breathe

You don't get deleted for being a trans ally

You don't get deleted for being factually obtuse or incorrect

The only reason you are more likely attacked by a man than a transowmen is that there are more men . The offending rate is the same

Also, plenty (the majority) of "trans women" are "straight males".

To me, trans is a further extension of homosexuality, its a scale and at the extreme end are those that wish to fully transition to the opposite end. We can all accept that some gay men are very feminine in their size, style and views, and that some lesbians (e.g. England ladies football team) possess masculine traits like physicality, aggression, competitiveness. Some are "born in the wrong body". Now it seems we're all happy to accept this and draw the line here. But then why not understand that some people may be much further along the scale, and not be content to remain in the body in which they were born. They may wish to "transition" and effectively become the gender they feel they are. And you may say good for them, but they're not coming into my toilet etc. But this would leave them genderly homeless - no longer affiliated to the gender they were assigned at birth, but then not accepted by the gender they have transitioned into. In an inclusive society there has to be a way to accept such people.