14 years, Highest taxes in 70 years, Brexit, ‘F**k business’, Mini-budget, poverty increase, Covid lockdown parties, Doctors strikes, National Service, Rwanda, Culture Wars etc

[Whenwillitgetwarm]

Please let today be Independence Day from the Tory regime.

Never forget.

I think it’s complicated. If you saw a bearded person in the ladies I think you’d automatically assume they were a biological male at first glance, and even if you scrutinised them more closely you wouldn’t be sure. Obviously female bearded persons are not exactly common.

Don't threaten me with a good time!

YANBU OP. Already done my bit to remove the hostile occupying force. By tomorrow Sunak will be Sunk.

There are 2 separate issues here, that trans activists intentionally conflate to manipulate opinion about these policies.

1. What should the basis for access to spaces be? (identity, sex, appearance etc.)
2. How do we manage or enforce such policies?

In my view the basis should be sex. And the management of such spaces depends on the situation.

Just because day to day we tend to determine who is male and female primarily by sight, doesn't mean that anyone who superficially looks female is eligible for female spaces.

Do you care explaining how culture wars are a Tory issue? What have they done? As far as I know woke stuff is a thing of the left.

Happily woke. It means I am aware of political, racial and societal issues and injustice.

Better than being ignorant of the suffering of others.

@Catza

It's one of these things the more you look into it the more horrifying it becomes.

It's very small part but large part about actual genuine trans men calling themselves women and doing everything we do like sports, intimate body care, changing room and so on. That's one aspect.
The other r aspect is Jimmy Savile type men literally given a free reign to go and do what they want.

That's my biggest worry.
Do I want a genuine trans man calling himself a woman in an open women's open room looking at my dds? No.

But do I want a pervert who has fetishised all this in their with them and they can't even complain? Hell no.

I've recently read a paper submitted to parliament by the daughter of man who festhised his trans. She explains the impact on her and others of a dad wanting to share period and knickers talk. She mentions how stonewall has eroded her rights and women's rights and how it's impacted her as the daughter of a trans man.

It's quite something.

But women and girls don't count right. That is so last century.

Boris Johnson - "watermelon smiles and piccanninies", "tank-topped bum boys" "bent bananas"
Rees-Mogg - people like him would have left Grenfell Tower and those that remained lacked common sense.

A couple of 'what have they dones' off the top of my head.

Of course they do @Hummingbird75 however I am not a one issue voter as I suffered immeasurably at the hands of the tories. I want a better life for all people - Starmer can't win against the likes of you - he will protect women only spaces as he said recently, whilst respecting trans people.

The polarisation is scary - they neither sides will vote for someone who wants to bring them together.

Always roll my eyes when people try and use "woke" as an insult. Up there with "snowflake" and "sheep".

I just think that all politicians forget their pre election promises and will be disappointed by whomever is in power as it is the culture 😆

One thing in the tories defence though is that people seem to forget that they had to deal with covid and the astronomical cost of that has massively and directly created alot of the debt. Higher costs and taxes were inevitable after covid.

🌹🌹🌹

This is such a red herring though. Less than 0.1% of population identifies as transgender woman. How this absolute minority can impact on your day to day life is absolutely beyond me. The likelihood of you coming across a transgender female in a “female space” is virtually 0. Yet, over the last 14 years Tories decimated woman’s rights left right and centre as women are disproportionally affected by poverty, changes to benefits system, gender pay gap, waning access to healthcare… But it’s not a sexy to-our to talk about, is it? Let’s all pile in onto hypothetical “other” threatening our rights.

I'm with you @Catza

Proud lefty feminist here. But we need the fucking Tories GONE!! ✊🏽✊🏽✊🏽

Liz Truss is a lefty?

But my problem with this is a bit different. I see what you are saying but I disagree with the one-sided argument which specifically targets transgender women. Transgender men are entirely absent from the discourse but we cannot ignore the fact that targeting transgender women specifically, in this context, is discriminatory.
So if we are talking about sex-based access, then we have to consider that transgender men will gain access to safe female spaces. After all, if we don’t believe in transgender identities then the rights of women have to consider all women, including those who appear as men. Therefore we have to agree that women who appear to be men will be using safe women spaces. And here lies logical fallacy which, personally, I cannot resolve. If we believe these women that they are indeed women and don’t question them then, pragmatically, it is no different than men declaring themselves transgender women to gain access to female spaces - I.e. it is conceivable that there will be a percentage of predators taking advantage of this. If, on the other hand we deny access or ask for proof, then, this will be discriminatory against the same women whose rights we are so eager to defend.

I appreciate that but it’s a very complex issue and I don’t think many people appreciate true consequences of what they are proposing. See my answer just above.
I will look for paper you mentioned

@Catza

If I understand you correctly, its an argument weve seen before...

We shouldn't have female only spaces, because then we would also have male only spaces, and some men would claim to be the women who look like men, and are no longer allowed in male spaces?

I just don't find it a plausible problem. And if it became an issue in women's spaces, the answer would probably be to label the two spaces as female and male + gender neutral. It's a system that is often proposed for sports, because it is really the female category that needs the protection, there is no harm in trans men, non binary people entering male events, so a similar solution would probably work for spaces. Or to put it another way, just because it is important to have a female only space doesn't mean it is equally important to have a male only space. (And I'm saying this as a male if that makes any difference).

No, you misunderstood me. I don’t advocate for male-only spaces. I am merely saying that, if the assumption is, that transgender men are female and access is based on sex then we have to come to terms that women who look like men will be able to access women-only spaces. Personally, I don’t believe women who use safe spaces will be happy with this, even though it appears to be a logical scenario based on their conviction that access should be based on biological sex.
So the argument becomes one-sided. Transgender men retain their freedom to use whichever facilities they chose. Transgender women have additional restrictions put on them which, surely, is discriminatory.
I don’t have the answer. I am not advocating for any particular approach. I just have a lot of questions and the firm belief that somehow the situation needs to be made to work for everyone without marginalising any particular group, be that sis or trans group.

@Catza
But I disagree. The legal change required is to allow providers to offer spaces accessed by sex, not force them to. They can offer female only plus gender neutral, or female only, male only and gender neutral etc.