To feel poor even though we earn well?

[erte]

We live in London and have to for our jobs. Even though we earn what most people would consider a very good household income, maybe top 5% nationally, we still feel poor.

Yes we can afford rent but can’t afford much more than a one bed and save. Whereas if you told me 10 years ago how much I would earn, I’d have imagined a far more comfortable existence.

I'd be happy to do a life swap with you OP. I get £2/hour as a carer for my mum. My heart bleeds for you.

This always confuses me.

It's advice to a one person. If you feel poor because of where you live, you need to move. People do it all the time.

No one is suggesting everyone leave London and all head to the same area at once. But its really a fact of life. If you can't afford where you live you need to move.

It would be great if any government could magic up another solution. But that's not happening. Op has options. People who are poor do not.

I live in a cheap area. I had to move here when I became a single parent. Since then my earnings have gone up quite alot. However, the people who live here and are struggling don't really have the choice of cutting their outgoings.

You’re not poor. You’re just not rich. You need to understand the difference.

You live in the most expensive area of the country. Your wages get swallowed up by rent there.

Can you relocate and earn less but keep more? That’s what I did. Leaving London was the best decision.

It’s hard without knowing more specifics like your housing expenses and number of children - but the IFS calculator (assuming £2k month housing costs and two children) would put you in the top 5% of household incomes if your combined annual gross income was £150,000. So if you’re in that ballpark no, you’re not poor.

edited to add : if you feel poor then you probably need to get some perspective. I would accept you can’t afford all the nice things you thought you might be able to enjoy but “poor” is very extreme.

OP did not say that she WAS poor, more that she FEELS poor despite earning very well.
I understand your point OP even if others are choosing not to.

If you can afford to save, you are not poor.

Mumsnet is a terrible place to complain about this kind of issue but I get you, OP.

I grew up dirt poor (roughest estates in the worst neighborhoods, food banks and social services involved kind of poor) so I know what it’s like to be real poor and not being able to afford much (or anything at all).

I have spent the first half of my 20’s just about making ends meet (and often not even that) and now I have finally climbed my career ladder and make what on paper is an incredible salary (and technically is a good salary) something I wouldn’t have dared ever dream of and yet, inflation and everything means that honestly what I thought would offer a much better lifestyle just… doesn’t.

I am by no means poor anymore but I also don’t feel like I live a much better lifestyle than what people making 2.5k (what I believe is a decent but not mind blowing salary) could afford 5-10 years ago in terms of lifestyle. I am very much grateful for the progress in all cases but it actually blows my mind that soo much money actually don’t go far at all in today’s economy. And yes that makes me a lot more aware of how much people who have much less or even earned what was once seen as a fairly decent salary though not crazy must go through right now as it really seems like everything has tripled in price and everyone’s lifestyle has been reeled back in despite spending a lot more for the same things.

And I get you because when I was genuinely struggling to have the equivalent of £10 on my account to feed myself I had genuine reasons to feel poor and like I was struggling (because I truly was), so it feels ridiculous that now making so much more it somehow doesn’t feel like there is as much of a gap as there should be between me then and me now as back then I would have killed to have my salary and definitely expected I could buy myself a villa with a pool and a nice car and even have a weekly cleaner on that kind of salary (lol I just wish) and somehow it’s sometimes harder to feel like you somehow still have to tighten your belt and watch your purchases and might still get stressed out if a big ticket item breaks down or need replacing when you technically are supposed to have money (which should take those worries away) than when you know you don’t.

But of course when you are in the thick of things it’s impossible to understand that concept. My younger broke self definitely wouldn’t have had any kind of empathy for you (or for me now) as when you are struggling to survive it’s really hard to hear people on so much more feel they are “struggling” but now I am on the other side of the coin, I get it. It’s a different kind of struggle and feeling tight and it’s uncomfortable in a different way but I get it.

For what you (likely) earn things like buying a home or having more than a bedroom or purchasing a new car shouldn’t feel a thing only millionaires can afford. it should seem accesible and somehow for many in the high brackets it’s not (and sometimes less accessible than for people on much lower salaries in lower cost cities).

So I am sorry you still feel tight despite your salary unfortunately I would say most of the population is feeling tight right now and we can only hope it’s a phase and people (on all income brackets) start seeing more for their money.

I worked in London for 20 years and DH has for 35 - never "needed" to live in London. A house.in London was always unaffordable to us even with decent salaries which is why we live a fairly easy hour's commute away in Essex. Train fairs are expensive but even so it was much much cheaper to commute than to buy in London.

It was hard at times as we both had pretty full on jobs and often had to put in very long hours but it was the best thing financially.

What are you left with after rent? That may way many of us could make a much fairer comment one way or the other.

The issue is that lifestyle influencers from want of a better term have warped our idea of what are essentials, what are luxuries etc.

We are in the "5%" bracket too but don't feel wealthy because we can't afford the conspicuous consumption trappings that we see on tv, online etc that "rich people" can have. The reality is that they are either top 1% people, or more likely they aren't actually paying for it!

There's also a huge element of choice within London as to where to live, there are places where £100k incomes buy houses but might not be where you want to live.

We don't live in the SE so money goes a lot further, my kids are grown, house paid off but we don't have that much spare to feel rich (extra money is being put into pensions!)

Does she feel like she cannot pay all her bills?
Does she feel like she's struggling for nutrition?
Does she feel like her child needs new shoes but she just cannot afford it this month?
Does she feel like she cannot remember her last holiday?
Does she feel like she couldn't really use the heating last cold spell?
Does she feel like she hasn't had a proper haircut in 3 years?
Does she feel like she hasn't got any savings?

Or does she just feel she's not got quite as much disposable income as she envisaged?

Top 5% is £87k plus. And I assume 'we' means 2 adults, so £174k a year.

Wish I was as poor as you op.

@Superhansrantowindsor

Housing costs aren't a national scandal because it's not a national problem. I was looking at an estate agents window 2 days ago on holiday - £200k bought you a 3-4 bed in good condition, 30 mins by train to major city, yesterday we were 200 miles south and similar prices, with 40 miles of even bigger city, where I live you can buy for £300k 15 mins on train from city centre, big city but in commuter town.

You're in London. That's the reason.

Fabulous city, great to visit, don't know how anyone actually lives there.

It’s not actually as simple as that. Interest rates have spiked massively, so lots of people are not in good financial positions. In the South East moving is expensive. Stamp duty certainly involved, not to mention thousands in fees. All money you have to find & will never get back. We are on edge of major city. Our commute is already an hour. If we were to move even further out, we’d have increased travel costs, increased travel time, increased travel costs, increased childcare costs as we’d need more of it due to the travel times. Our jobs are here & job opportunities in our sectors are limited in other areas. Although we can work from home a bit, we do need to go into office regularly / at the drop of a hat. The spike in interest rates / bills (to recent extents) is not something that could have been predicted. We have considered relocating to a different country in a bid to make life easier, but again, if we were to sell we’d never be able to re-buy our house / neighbourhood again so we believe we’ll be worse off overall. We just have to have faith that things will get better.

The tax thresholds need to come down.
under either labour or Tory , tax is going up - it’s ridiculous to believe otherwise.
my dh and I both earn a good combined household wage and we have barely any luxuries and drive a crap car. We are being over taxed and can’t get child benefit.

Unemployment in the country for an over 25 is £393 a month.

Sure they light get some housing paid too but, £393 is the standard UC allowance.
To pay:
Gas
Electric
Water
Council tax
Rent top up
Insurance
Food

Now that's poverty.

Earning in the Top 5% - putting some in savings, some in a pension, some to pay off a debt, a mortgage in a house worth £££, paying rent of £££, a car, alcohol, meals out, takeaways. Etc.
That's not being poor, that's spending your wealth.

This. Well said.

The outskirts aren't much more expensive than where I grew up on the south coast. Plus much better job prospects. Yes much cheaper up north though

This.

I do understand having been there but if you have this kind of attitude then even moving out, you'll be moaning about the lack of culture and food scene.

Also no job actually requires you to be in the city unless you work for an investment bank. If you are in other professional services or government, you can do these jobs outside of London with a pay cut, they just won't be top of the tree in terms of salary / work quality. That's the compromise.

Having had to make the choice of whether to move "out" or "to the suburbs" we picked "out" and our life is 95% ace. And we come into London frequently for a fix of culture. I didn't want suburban living. No point having a crappy city job with unrealistic hours expectations AND a ridiculous commute.

Interest rate rises & our mortgage renewing at rates no one could ever have predicted. We could almost rent another property with the increase! We have kids now too, so larger property & have childcare costs. Definitely not comfortable financially at the moment, despite on paper having a relatively decent household income. We always knew it would be hard, but as mentioned previously, the increase to mortgage costs a couple of years after we moved in, was stratospheric. We’ve discussed moving, but decided against for now.

It's not national, she says as a northerner - but it is not a London issue.
I'm in a very average small town in Wiltshire where wages are low (even in Bath or Bristol). We bought a 2 bed for £125k in 2008 with 5% deposit, and the same house has just sold for £235k. It doesn't even have central heating and the 2nd bed is a boxroom.
Even though our rate was 7%, the repayments on that house now (if you manage a 10% deposit) are nearly £500 more a month.

Sorry it's so hard.

I don't understand how folk don't realise mortgage rates can go up and down though, especially as they've been actually very low for a reasonable amount of time.

Always one who comes in with the 'heart bleeds' comment. Completely unable to open your mind to the situation of other people. All you see is figures.

You are assuming that OP is the only one in this type of situation though, threads like these pop up almost daily and the OP’s are without fail always told to move to a cheaper area. It is just common sense that when bills start going up people can’t afford to live in the expensive areas any more so lots will move to cheaper areas but will have more money to spend than the people who would ordinarily buy there so they will bid competitively. Once a house on a street sells for X price then others on that street will expect the same when they sell.

I live in what used to be a cheap area but prices are now sky high after the post Covid boom and then when Liz Truss fucked up everyone mortgages, because the area has good transport links to the two big cities the people who lived in the expensive commuter towns are all moving here. It’s great for us, because our house is now worth loads more than we paid for it but it sucks for anyone trying to get on the ladder when starter homes are on average 60k more than they were four years ago and social housing lists are so long no one has a hope in hell. Private rent has also shot up.