To continue to challenge the school on this? Religious observance

[sleepfortheweek]

Our DC go to a non denominational primary school in a fairly rural part of Scotland. At the end of each term (Christmas, Easter and summer) there is an end of term service in a Church of Scotland church with the other primary schools.

We are a non religious household and while we welcome RME in an educational sense, we are not comfortable with our DC attending church services. A couple of years ago, DD1 told me that JOY meant you must love Jesus Over Yourself and after that we decided to withdraw the DC from the end of term services.

I emailed the school and asked what other provision was in place for non Christian children and I was told none - if we didn't want them to go to the church then we had to pick them up early (the school day finishes after the church service).

When I challenged this, I was told that 'Religious Observance' was part of the curriculum of excellence and I was sent a link which went into the legislation.

The definition of RO is :

Religious Observance is defined as follows: "Community acts which aim to promote the spiritual development of all members of the school's community and express and celebrate the shared values of the school community".

However, when I read through it, it's very clear that should a child be withdrawn, suitable alternative arrangements must be made. I don't think the school has actually read it!

I was then told that they offer alternative activities for the other RO throughout the school year......I am totally unaware of any other such activity and so I asked for clarification at which point they passed me over to the education manager. How can I withdraw them if I don't know when it happens??

The educational manager has said that alternative provisions should be made and the school will hopefully keep me better informed in the new academic year.

I highly doubt that will happened and I'm pretty sure at the next service (Christmas) we will be in exactly the same position.

All the schools here (two main primary schools and a few village schools) are exactly the same. It's a big tradition that goes back decades where all the schools go to the church and I don't think any of them want to change that.

Should I continue to fight this? I'm not a confrontational personal and I've otherwise had a good relationship with the school but this is really annoying me. I had to take unpaid leave today to collect the kids early from the school. I just can't see how they can justify it!

The legislation can be read here :

www.gov.scot/publications/curriculum-for-excellence-religious-observance/

The challenge is they will need all of the adults to take the children to the church. If your child stays behind that means at least two adults will need to stay behind with them.

Gosh, I’m a fully paid up follower of Jesus but that acronym has me cringing so hard. So twee and so simplistic.

Sorry I know that wasn’t the point and I don’t really have advice but I’m not sure I’d want them having that message even though I teach my child what I believe about Jesus! It makes it sound like you have to sacrifice joy for the sake of Jesus which is a horrible message to send a child.

Yes I think that's the issue (although they haven't said as such). However, I have nieces and nephews in other parts of Scotland who have the option to stay in school so it must be doable!

My friend goes with her DD at the end of term and said at Easter they had two kids come to the front and loaded their backpacks with heavy items - this represented their sins. One was robbery apparently! They then pretended that after death, God removed the backpack of the Christian but the non Christian's remained on their back (this was role play - no idea if they were actually Christian or not). The moral of the story was that God forgives your sins if you are Christian.

I know a lot the kids who go to the service are not actually Christian, but they go because their parents don't have alternative childcare for them.

Have a look at the Humansts website. You will find some support there.

Imo religion of any variety needs to be banned from schools unless it is along the lines of some people believe this and some people believe that.

To present any religion as fact, or better than another, is morally reprehensible.

You should pursue it and I think if you quote the legislation to the headteacher/governors eventually they will see sense

Yes it will be inconvenient for them and they will have to sort out alternative arrangements but that's not your problem - they need to work within the law and the law is clear.

You will get lots of posters saying it's your problem to deal with but the law is very clear that you can withdraw your child from religious services and it is the school's responsibility to make arrangements to look after them instead not yours.

Yes YABU. A child going to church with school 3 times a year isnt going to override whatever you want to teach them about Christianity at home.
Or you take 3 half days a year and collect them if you feel that strongly about it.

Can you buddy up with any other families and take it in turns to host an alternative end of term party?

I understand that the church or some religious body can sometimes contribute to a schools funding and that's the reason they may have such a focus on these things.

It's so outdated but I don't think it will change soon.

Seeing as you often won't win easily against these institutions ( schools etc), I'm of the view ' is this really a hill to die on?'.

I'm a dedicated atheist or humanist. Not sure on the correct term but I have very little time for religion.

My son goes to a really quaint village school where there is quite an emphasis on religious values, going to church etc. He's in the Worship team. His RE teacher thinks he is absolutely wonderful and he heads up loads of religious events. He does not believe in one word of it and diplomatically asks obvious questions that highlight how ridiculous it is. - because this is what we do and discuss at home. But he does it in a nice way.

I make sure I correct this jesus first nonsense. I'll say that's a lovely sentiment but we always put ourselves first, always. We just do all we can not to hurt others. I'll say I think the values associated with this are nice. At this age I don't think they're that bothered or are going to be indoctrinated. It all changes by secondary school.

I wouldn't bother fighting it too much tbh. Just make sure at home you counter everything. You discuss and educate on evolution, you ask your children to question all of it. Have discussions. Even explain that many religious people really don't like to be challenged and become quite defensive. I have these discussions with my son. I know full well he sees how nonsensical it is. But some people feel good by believing it.

There are definitely some issues I think we should take a stand on. This one I don't. You're at risk of being ' that ' parent. And I do believe that can subconsciously impact how your child is treated by some people.

YANBU.

How can I withdraw them if I don't know when it happens? You should be able to withdraw them from all the school's religious observances, rather than separately each time? Unless there's an issue with what the school is categorising as religious observance (as in, slipping Christianity to events they claim to be neutral), that should work.

Oh, I've quoted many, many parts of the legislation to them! They just passed me over to the Education manager and basically put their fingers in their ears and said la la la

That's outrageous.

I would contact Humanists UK

And your local MP/MSP.

They can't just ignore their legal obligations

Actually, DD2 is now declaring she's Christian. She loves Jesus and told me she wants to be Christian as otherwise she'll not get in to heaven or have eternal life.

So - three times a year on top of a heavy emphasis on Christianity during the school year IS overriding our teachings at home.

I want to be respectful to other religions so won't says to the DC that's it's wrong, just that it's what Christian's believe and we don't practice Christianity.

I absolutely agree with how nonsensical this crap is! I am happy to shout it from the rooftops. But OP is clearly becoming 'that parent ' and I don't think it's doing OP or her child any favours.

I think sometimes someone has to be that parent to effect change.

I suspect that she isn't the only parent annoyed by it either

@Pantaloons99 can you elaborate?

I either go along with it, against my beliefs, or I challenge it.

I've chosen the latter.

Definitely start asking the other parents if they'd prefer for their child not to go. Most parents don't know that they can opt out!

Bloody hell im a fully paid up Catholic and I’d be very uncomfortable with this teaching. Children don’t have sin ffs!

YABU because this country, yes Scotland too, is entwined legally, democratically, constitutionally, historically, culturally and socially with Christianity and the Bible. It’s essential for their education and innate spiritual development that they are exposed to it.

And three visits a year and a few references to Jesus isn’t going to turn them into zombified cult members. This ignorance and bigotry just highlights even more why religious literacy is important.

Just saw your update OP. I wouldn't like that either. I absolutely would challenge it quite strongly to your daughter. I wouldn't even care about disrespect. Saying she is Christian and loving Jesus I could cope with ( pretty likely that will change by secondary).The heaven hell nonsense I would very strongly challenge. ' We do not believe in that and there are many people who also don't believe this to be true. We have no evidence at all on this. ' I'd be teaching evolutionary theory straight away.

If my son was doing this I'd feel differently than I do.

Compulsory RE in schools is the best way to create atheists yet invented.

Tell your kids NEVER to think of it as "little baby cheeses"

and let them enjoy the spectacle while believing nothing.

How do the kids feel?

We (me and my siblings) didn't attend the Christ of Scotland school services and it was horrible for us. We didn't get to go with our friends, felt singled out and different, had to stay behind when our friends go to go off...

Trust me, they won't 'catch the god' of they go to church once a term.

Just because it always has, doesn't mean it always should?

As I've stated above, it's affecting DD2. She's totally conflicted and I'm trying to be as neutral as possible but it's hard.

I'm all for teaching of religions in school. I absolutely welcome it, in an educational sense. As in 'Christians believe this, and Muslims believe this' etc. however, telling them it as truth is different, and that's what happens at church.

If I wanted my children to attend church, I'd take them on a Sunday.

Oh and DS went to school where they went to abbey a couple of times a week. He wasn't overly impressed at first - I told him to enjoy the peace and quiet, and take advantage of the opportunity to sit in a beautiful historic building and look at all the gilt and statues. How often do we get to sit and daydream in the week?

We give them the option. They never want to go.