To continue to challenge the school on this? Religious observance

[sleepfortheweek]

Our DC go to a non denominational primary school in a fairly rural part of Scotland. At the end of each term (Christmas, Easter and summer) there is an end of term service in a Church of Scotland church with the other primary schools.

We are a non religious household and while we welcome RME in an educational sense, we are not comfortable with our DC attending church services. A couple of years ago, DD1 told me that JOY meant you must love Jesus Over Yourself and after that we decided to withdraw the DC from the end of term services.

I emailed the school and asked what other provision was in place for non Christian children and I was told none - if we didn't want them to go to the church then we had to pick them up early (the school day finishes after the church service).

When I challenged this, I was told that 'Religious Observance' was part of the curriculum of excellence and I was sent a link which went into the legislation.

The definition of RO is :

Religious Observance is defined as follows: "Community acts which aim to promote the spiritual development of all members of the school's community and express and celebrate the shared values of the school community".

However, when I read through it, it's very clear that should a child be withdrawn, suitable alternative arrangements must be made. I don't think the school has actually read it!

I was then told that they offer alternative activities for the other RO throughout the school year......I am totally unaware of any other such activity and so I asked for clarification at which point they passed me over to the education manager. How can I withdraw them if I don't know when it happens??

The educational manager has said that alternative provisions should be made and the school will hopefully keep me better informed in the new academic year.

I highly doubt that will happened and I'm pretty sure at the next service (Christmas) we will be in exactly the same position.

All the schools here (two main primary schools and a few village schools) are exactly the same. It's a big tradition that goes back decades where all the schools go to the church and I don't think any of them want to change that.

Should I continue to fight this? I'm not a confrontational personal and I've otherwise had a good relationship with the school but this is really annoying me. I had to take unpaid leave today to collect the kids early from the school. I just can't see how they can justify it!

The legislation can be read here :

www.gov.scot/publications/curriculum-for-excellence-religious-observance/

But what will you say if she wants to practice Christianity? Basically, you're imposing your beliefs on her, which some would think was just the same as the school imposing its Christian values.
We are not a Christian family, don't do church etc, but both our DC went to CoE schools as they were the only schools available at the time. They fully embraced the religious stuff, much to our amusement. It pretty soon waned when they ent to secondary school!
The thing is, if you make a stand and insist on different provision for your DC during these religious events, what will you do if the DC want to go because they enjoy it or because they want to be with their friends?

The thing is it isn’t presented like that- it’s presented as The Truth, with a side order of guilt and fear thrown in (if you don’t believe it then you have sinned [read- are a bad person] and will go to hell).

It isn’t fair to expect primary school children to think their way through that without a lot of support, which they are unlikely to get from their teachers.

Children are told to trust and learn from their teachers- if the teacher takes them to church where the person in charge tells them they have to believe this or face terrible consequences, and there is tacit or spoken agreement from the teachers, then it’s difficult for the children to let it go.

That only works if the school is presenting all religions equally. The school is endorsing Christianity and only Christianity. All the other religions are taught as religion should truly be taught, as a thing some people believe that has an impact on our history, culture, and government.

Oh FFS! I teach in an ostensibly catholic school in Ireland & even we have pared back the church's influence, we have many children of varying religious backgrounds, no child needs guilt or this type of indoctrination, go to mass in your spare time if that's what you want but schools need to stay out of it

I've had to deflect questions about religion for a long time in school from pupils, it should be separate, we're slowly moving away (communion, confirmation) but it should have happened a long time ago, no shade if that's your thing

I wish you the best of luck with all this OP.

My son is at a pretty religious (CofE) middle school and it's the single most annoying/frustrating thing for him about it. He loathes the collective worship, the references to the gospel in their motto and charter etc, the repeated mini lectures during assemblies and tutor time. (He doesn't actually seem to mind the RE lessons as much - learning about other religions doesn't bother him that much but as a child very focused on facts and science, he finds the repeated insistence that Christianity is the default very frustrating.)

It's very patronising and weirdly naive of people to say things like "don't worry, he won't catch God" - that really isn't the point.

I’m an atheist but DD goes to a Catholic school. It’s an excellent school, hence sending her there, and I’m happy to suck up the religious stuff for the other benefits.

@Soontobe60 but the school shouldn't have 'Christian values' to impose in the first place.

DD2 loves singing hymns (they practice before the services ) and I would never tell them they weren't allowed to sing them or hoping in.

If my DC have a balanced experience of all religion growing up and then chose one, then I would absolutely support that. I'm not anti religious, just because I don't have one.

What eill kids be missing out on if they're not taught Christianity as fact?

OP sent her child to the local non-dom school, not a Christian school.

I had something similar in the early days of when DS2 and DD were in primary. As they were the only 2 who weren't attending church the headteacher tried to be difficult and said I'd have to collect them then bring them back for an hour until 2:30 when school closed.
I remember I just didn't send them in on the last day of term at Easter, Christmas and for the leavers service which were always in church.
Once she realised it wasn't a bother for me to keep them home they made arrangements in school. There's always a TA or two who are also not practicing Christians and who were happy to look after any children in school whilst everyone was at church.

I could not disagree with you more. I’m more than capable of raising my kids to be moral human beings without religion. They don’t need any “innate spiritual development” thanks 🙄

The National Secular Society have various campaigns related to religion in schools - I’d contact them to ask for advice and support if I were you.

What a shame they won’t get to reflect on the meaning of life then. I think most humans ask that question don’t they? You think life just boils down to a binary language of moral choices? May as well be AI then. Nothing about the beauty of creation? The mystery of the universe? What happens after death? What is love?

This is all ‘innate spiritual development’ - are you saying your children shouldn’t reflect on this? If so I feel sorry for them.

You do realize that people who aren’t Christian do these things? Even atheists contemplate these things. It is wonderful to do so without artificial constraints and advanced interpretations.

we have wonderful philosophical discussions in our household about all aspects of existence.

It's three times a year. You can teach her what you like. Not worth the argument.

I don’t get what the problem is. Just pick them up early if you don’t want them to join in.

There's always a dripfeed to prove your point.

Even kids in religious schools aren't taught some of the stuff you're saying.

Fight the fight if you have the time and energy, but you don't need to rally support. The other parents aren't as passionate as you, or their kids aren't listening and believing what is said, unlike your kids.

When I've had an issue with the school, I assert my position, without getting a gang of others, even if it affects their kids. My concern is about my child.

They will think your a PITA, but who cares.

I totally agree with you OP. I don't think there should be any religious schools in this country funded by the state either (I'm aware you said your child's school is non dom).

Original sin?
Confessing sins?

OP It's a difficult one, I'm the type of atheist who makes Richard Dawkins look mild.

On one hand I think it is ridiculous the school are doing this, and I suspect there is more to it than just the church bit if your DD is picking up on things.

If it is just those three services I'd probably let them go, it's useful to know how to behave in a church before you ruin someone's wedding or funeral.

I think you need to find out what they are teaching and when.

YOU might not but she may choose to.

How old are your DC? It could just be an age thing were they are enjoying tohe stories and participating.

My two went to a full catholic school, best in the area. My lovely dad was catholic so they were baptised and did holy communion with everyone else.

By year 6 DS was a complete atheist.

DD was never as forceful
We celebrate Christmas with gifts and family, not church. We celebrate Easter the same was.

Personally I'd remind school in writing of the opt out policy as your right but leave the children there as it's only for a couple of years.

You won't change them and as you feel so strongly your only option is to take them out.

I feel some posters are missing the point that it isn't "just 3 days a year". The general teaching seems to be that Christianity is the "true" way, but some poor misguided souls may have different faiths.

I know it was a long time ago, but I remember at secondary school we had daily morning assembly which included the Lord's Prayer and Christian hymns, RK (religious knowledge aka RE) was almost 100% based around the Christian faith, and there was no recognition of Holy days of any other faith.

Surely this was religious indoctrination by omission? The OP herself says that she found out that there were unspecified "other RO throughout the school year" which she had no knowledge of, so how much of this Christian indoctrination is taking place?

@sleepfortheweek are you able to say what provision there is at this school for the teaching of non-Christian religions e.g. visits to non-Christian places of worship, education about them in class etc?

The op is at work and can’t pick the child up early. And she shouldn’t have to.

Half my family is Muslim from the ME.

Then went to a catholic schools (even my MIL and her siblings back in the day - 1940/50a - and her parents were very religious) and learned English and Italian, as well as the religious stuff when whey were little in the ME, and attended schools here that had church affiliations.

I can’t get too bothered about this stuff (it really shouldn’t affect kids - I had one teacher who was born again fire and brimstone type - and a bit crazy - but we kids saw her for the hypocrite she was) when the kids are being taught all the ‘bow stuff at the moment.

There is no need to believe in a spirit to wonder about the meaning of life, love, or death.

Philosophy isn’t the reserve of Christians (or any other religion).

You have Sartre, Marx, Russel, de Beauvoir, Bentham, Foucault and Lucretius to name a few of the most famous thinkers to start with.