To continue to challenge the school on this? Religious observance

[sleepfortheweek]

Our DC go to a non denominational primary school in a fairly rural part of Scotland. At the end of each term (Christmas, Easter and summer) there is an end of term service in a Church of Scotland church with the other primary schools.

We are a non religious household and while we welcome RME in an educational sense, we are not comfortable with our DC attending church services. A couple of years ago, DD1 told me that JOY meant you must love Jesus Over Yourself and after that we decided to withdraw the DC from the end of term services.

I emailed the school and asked what other provision was in place for non Christian children and I was told none - if we didn't want them to go to the church then we had to pick them up early (the school day finishes after the church service).

When I challenged this, I was told that 'Religious Observance' was part of the curriculum of excellence and I was sent a link which went into the legislation.

The definition of RO is :

Religious Observance is defined as follows: "Community acts which aim to promote the spiritual development of all members of the school's community and express and celebrate the shared values of the school community".

However, when I read through it, it's very clear that should a child be withdrawn, suitable alternative arrangements must be made. I don't think the school has actually read it!

I was then told that they offer alternative activities for the other RO throughout the school year......I am totally unaware of any other such activity and so I asked for clarification at which point they passed me over to the education manager. How can I withdraw them if I don't know when it happens??

The educational manager has said that alternative provisions should be made and the school will hopefully keep me better informed in the new academic year.

I highly doubt that will happened and I'm pretty sure at the next service (Christmas) we will be in exactly the same position.

All the schools here (two main primary schools and a few village schools) are exactly the same. It's a big tradition that goes back decades where all the schools go to the church and I don't think any of them want to change that.

Should I continue to fight this? I'm not a confrontational personal and I've otherwise had a good relationship with the school but this is really annoying me. I had to take unpaid leave today to collect the kids early from the school. I just can't see how they can justify it!

The legislation can be read here :

www.gov.scot/publications/curriculum-for-excellence-religious-observance/

She made some bad taste tweets about resurrection in Easter Day. Just snippy for the hell of it.

sorry - I do realise that I can’t assume everyone is like her.

Slightly outing but hey ho.

When my kids were at primary, one of the 7 governors was the madly happy clappy vicar.
I called him out for pretending to eat a daffodil in front of the kids "because god would save him"
they got me to update the RE policy as a baptised and confirmed atheist I was best informed.

During one RE week, they wanted all of the kids to come in with their favourite creation tales
I sent my kids in with a Viking and an Egyptian story.
That week never happened again.

Do not challenge head on, subvert and humour.
Your kids will thank you as will all the wavering parents.

(PS the vicars wife left him for the gravedigger)

That sounds awful, I'm sorry you had to experience that.

We are 100% not doing that to our kids though. If they really wanted to go the church, we would of course let them. They've been practicing hymns for weeks. They learn about the Easter and Christmas stories.

It's all about choice. Their grandmother is very religious and they have conversations about it and they ask her questions. She is very good at not telling it as gospel though, just the teachings of the bible.

I found some of my school's religious assemblies distressing. I remember crying once after a particularly supersessionist one where there was an undercurrent vibe of 'we are all Christians; Jews are no more'.

I envied the JW girl who got to sit it all out, because her parents excused her.

You are risking your children feeling very 'other' especially if all the schools in the area meet together for the Christmas Service. You say you give your children the choice to attend but be honest with yourself, they know exactly which answer you want to hear. You are entitled to make your own decision but you are really refusing to allow your children to make a decision for themselves, evidenced by your ridiculing your daughter's claim to want to be Christian. If you just go along with the flow it will be a non issue. Your insistence on making such an issue is making it into a BIG issue. I'm with the school on this one.

So many cool parents on this thread seemingly congratulating themselves on 'saving' their children from so call indoctrination because they kick up a fuss about the occasion school church services.
Please do also confirm that you boycott anything related to Christmas and Easter that your children may enjoy.
As a Christian and a mother i find it so depressingly predictable.

sleepfortheweek I'm glad to hear it. IMO the less fuss is made of conflicting beliefs (within reason) the easier it is for children to get on with growing up.

BTW I spent a long time feeling strongly that regardless of God's existence or not, the creation stories held some major flaws, not least that you had to start from a point of accepting that: 'In the beginning, God was just there...'

Science and evolution was just obviously more sense.
However, I have come to realize that one slight problem, is one has to start from the acceptance point of 'In the beginning, whatever caused the Big Bang was just there...'
Dammed if you do, and dammed if you don't! 😂

I think you can undo what you see as bad by having conversations at home about how people with a belief will often state it as a fact. That belief and opinion are not necessarily facts. Teach your child critical thinking rather than try to shield them from what you believe is incorrect teaching.

Different but similar. My child attends a school that teaches the belief people can change sex. I do not subscribe to this. I cannot pull my child from this teaching. I've spoken with my child and they understand I do not agree with what they are taught and that they need to make their own mind up on things like this. It's actually been really good I think their critical thinking skills have really benefited

I have never ridiculed her, not to her face and not behind her back. I just stated what she told me.

There are many kids who don't go to the end of term service, some of their friends included. They are not the only ones.

I would keep on at them.

I removed my son from mass and in England at least they do have to offer alternative provision

(as it happens I am a sahm so the head asked me very nicely and apologetically if I minded bringing him in after mass, which was fine with us- but she made it very clear that I was doing them a favour- it was a Catholic school and all the staff wanted to go to mass)

@PurpleBugz yes, well articulated. I think this is the right and best approach. Encourage your child to question every single thing and debate it.
We cannot single handedly change some of these systems no matter how hard we try.
I have a problem with the entire school curriculum. But what can I do. Home schooling will never be an option unfortunately so we sometimes just have to work with the systems we know we cannot overpower.

I am so with you. While watching the Christmas episode of All Creatures Great and Small last year, a character had been brought up in a non believing home. So he had never previously sung Christmas songs, ate Christmas food, had Christmas presents. It really stuck me that OK it was based in 1930s but that was true non belief of Christianity and it's festivals, not just picking the bits you like and find acceptable and fun and reject the religious aspects.

@Toomuchsuntoday @Lorelaigilmore88

being atheist isn’t about being cool, unless you think being religious is about being uncool?!

Yes, of course keep challenging them. You are within your rights to ask for this, and your wishes are just as important as theirs. It sounds like this is not your usual explaining what some people believe happened at Christmas and Easter, but talking about it like it's the only truth and scaring them into religion. This is not right and they should be made aware.

HOW DARE YOU EAT EGGS AT EASTER BECAUSE YOU DON'T THINK JESUS IS REAL 😂😂😂. Anyway, most of what is celebrated now has been appropriated by Christians from old pagan traditions. So why do you celebrate Jesus' birth at the winter solstice if you don't believe in pre-christian religion?

TBF as a Christian do you not recognize and accept that Christianity (and other religions) moved in on and converted many prior festivals into 'Christmas and Easter' and such things as decorated trees, gift giving, Easter eggs, chicks and bunnies, ect, have little to do with Christianity but are enjoyed by children as part of festivals that for many have nothing to do with a belief in Christ?

As a child it was 'Christian' teachers who didn't let me draw robins, make cotton wool covered post boxes, paper crackers, straw stars, wear paper hats, or make Christmas or Easter cards, because they wanted to ensure that my mothers demands would be felt miserably by me.
I would stand outside, or sit facing the wall so that Christians could be sure that I was not in any way benefiting. I litter picked the yard while others sang carols inside, often made to put a finger in one ear, lest I should enjoy something, and once notably was sent to stand at the back of the kitchens in the snow because a Salvation Army brass band was playing at the school Christmas concert.
I may be wrong but I've come to the conclusion that it was a poor representation of what being Christian is.

talking about it like it's the only truth and scaring them into religion. This is not right and they should be made aware.

I agree. I am a Christian but I removed ds from mass because of the way they were talking to them.

If people are going to be religious then they should be allowed to find their faith themselves, they don’t need to be told at 5 that they will be going to hell if they don’t believe in a RC (or any other denomination’s) God.

It’s educational for children to be exposed to the whole plethora of faith practices, but not to be told any one has greater validity than the others.

YABU because this country, yes Scotland too, is entwined legally, democratically, constitutionally, historically, culturally and socially with Christianity and the Bible. It’s essential for their education and innate spiritual development that they are exposed to it.

Being exposed to something is not the same as being made to join in. Having an understanding of the religious background to much of the history of this country I agree is very important, but being indoctrinated into one view being the only "right" one is what led to the slaughter of many innocent people in the time of the Tudors because they believed in one version of Christianity rather than another - Edward VI persecuted Catholics, then Mary I persecuted Protestants, then Elizabeth I ended up persecuting Catholics because they spent their time plotting to get rid so we could have another Catholic monarch.

Do you think it's also essential for the 'innate spiritual development' of children from Jewish/Muslim/Hindu families that they are forced to attend Christian services at school and taught Christianity as truth?

Hear hear! All schools should have the ability to allow pupils of different faiths to not attend overtly Christian festivals, make them sing songs in praise of a different God etc. How many of the Christian parents on this thread would be happy if their children's schools made it mandatory for the children to take part in prayers or songs praising a different God to theirs? Or making their children observe Ramadan?

I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. All you are doing is teaching your child to be intolerant to the wider world and all the different aspects to it.

And teaching them that the school's way is the only right way is being tolerant of other beliefs how?

They will need to have spiritual development opportunities too - it’s mandatory. And if those families send their child to a Christian school then they should expect a level of Christian practice that they will be allowed to opt out of.

The OP's very first sentence specifies "non-denominational school".

Please do also confirm that you boycott anything related to Christmas and Easter that your children may enjoy.

In that case, I do hope you boycott any of the so called "Christian" traditions around these events that actually aren't anything to do with Christ? Fluffy chicks & eggs are related to fertility rights, and spring is the time of the year for births in the animal kingdom, and the sowing of crops. Evergreen decorations (including trees), Yule logs, feasting and gift giving etc at mid winter are not Christian traditions only, just about all religions have those and they go back to before Christ was born.

Most churches I’ve been in have a ‘crying corridor’ or separate room with a glass window for parents to take young kids to, so they do t disturb worship. Parents can hear the service ‘piped in’
but the sound of the kids can’t get out. Would it be acceptable to you if your dc sat there with a book, with the sound relay turned off? A member of staff could easily keep an eye on him through the window

No such thing in the church they attend

RE is an agreed syllabus, it’s quite interesting actually. We’ve been to many places of worship. I don’t know of any children or staff who have caught any of the religions.
I’ve had the occasional child who’s been withdrawn from ‘religious’ trips. They either spend the day in another class or in the school office BUT they become very proficient at LEGO.

Are there other parents who feel the same way? Acting as a group may give you more weight

RE is different to RO

Trips to places of worship are different to attending services. One is an interesting cultural and historical lesson, and the other is an act of worship.

Can you not let your daughter hear the other side of the argument and make up her own mind about what she wants to believe?