To continue to challenge the school on this? Religious observance

[sleepfortheweek]

Our DC go to a non denominational primary school in a fairly rural part of Scotland. At the end of each term (Christmas, Easter and summer) there is an end of term service in a Church of Scotland church with the other primary schools.

We are a non religious household and while we welcome RME in an educational sense, we are not comfortable with our DC attending church services. A couple of years ago, DD1 told me that JOY meant you must love Jesus Over Yourself and after that we decided to withdraw the DC from the end of term services.

I emailed the school and asked what other provision was in place for non Christian children and I was told none - if we didn't want them to go to the church then we had to pick them up early (the school day finishes after the church service).

When I challenged this, I was told that 'Religious Observance' was part of the curriculum of excellence and I was sent a link which went into the legislation.

The definition of RO is :

Religious Observance is defined as follows: "Community acts which aim to promote the spiritual development of all members of the school's community and express and celebrate the shared values of the school community".

However, when I read through it, it's very clear that should a child be withdrawn, suitable alternative arrangements must be made. I don't think the school has actually read it!

I was then told that they offer alternative activities for the other RO throughout the school year......I am totally unaware of any other such activity and so I asked for clarification at which point they passed me over to the education manager. How can I withdraw them if I don't know when it happens??

The educational manager has said that alternative provisions should be made and the school will hopefully keep me better informed in the new academic year.

I highly doubt that will happened and I'm pretty sure at the next service (Christmas) we will be in exactly the same position.

All the schools here (two main primary schools and a few village schools) are exactly the same. It's a big tradition that goes back decades where all the schools go to the church and I don't think any of them want to change that.

Should I continue to fight this? I'm not a confrontational personal and I've otherwise had a good relationship with the school but this is really annoying me. I had to take unpaid leave today to collect the kids early from the school. I just can't see how they can justify it!

The legislation can be read here :

www.gov.scot/publications/curriculum-for-excellence-religious-observance/

I am laughing a bit at the thought of Humanists U.K. having anything sway over the management of the school! They need to find a way to hold on to your child OP while the service is happening. However, they probably expect parents to be quite happy to have their dc finish early a couple of times a year.

YABU because this country, yes Scotland too, is entwined legally, democratically, constitutionally, historically, culturally and socially with Christianity and the Bible. It’s essential for their education and innate spiritual development that they are exposed to it.

Do you think it's also essential for the 'innate spiritual development' of children from Jewish/Muslim/Hindu families that they are forced to attend Christian services at school and taught Christianity as truth?

It's not possible for children to grow to adulthood in this country without a knowledge of Christianity and the Bible. It is, however, possible to teach those through a comparative Religious Studies education, rather than presenting Christian dogma as universal.

wow, the Easter thing sounds appalling
I agree, canvass opinion of other parents
I'm not sure what the role of the 'education manager' is we don't have that role in England I think
I would keep pushing on this. I'm going to hazard a guess that you are white and therefore presumed to be 'christian really' and just making a fuss. The beliefs of your family are just as important as anyone else's and deserve respect.
I wouldn't worry about your DD too much though, ,just say 'that's nice dear' and carry on with the respectful discussions.

I went to a Scottish non dom school the JW kids always got to sit out.

To reassure though as an atheist I went to a few services a year and did Easter and he nativity and remained an atheist.

They have done this sort of case in the past

https://humanists.uk/2019/11/20/school-concedes-in-collective-worship-legal-case-will-provide-alternative-assemblies/

The humanists - who think humans can change sex and take the Mickey out of religious types?

@spriots yes that's a really valid point. You are right. But OP is not going to be that parent. No change is coming anytime soon, especially whilst her child is in school. OP is highly unlikely to effect change here. But it would be wonderful to see it change in time as it's against my values too.

@sleepfortheweek I share the same views on this as you. I would feel uncomfortable if my son was doing this. Perhaps I can laugh about it and see the positives as my son is the way he is. He's Autistic so has a fantastic bullshit detector and sees every hole in the argument. But as another poster has said, he enjoys parts of it - he has really enjoyed philosophising with his teacher now he's coming to the end of primary, he enjoys going with his classmates down to the church. They're all ' subjected to it together.' I have no problem helping my son see how nonsensical it all is. I just try encourage him to be polite when he challenges it all in school.

I honestly feel your daughter will absolutely change her view on all this very quickly by secondary school. This is more about your frustrations that religion is still doing this and enforcing it's nonsense upon us. I do feel the same but it's not worth singling my son out over. I've seen how it can be when parents start peeing the school off. I believe they absolutely do see the kids of these parents differently.

The heaven/hell thing is deeply unsettling.

This additional info here you gave would make me worry about the messages they are sending the children. It is by far a different level of awful.
I think the first post indicates a possible grey area, however I do mostly agree with you as an atheist.
I'd be furious.

Well yes... While we still teach Shakespeare to school pupils, and we still have a justice system based on Christian values, and a language formed around Biblical ideas and imagery, then yes, they’ll need to know about Christianity….

Your child has latched on to Christianity, yes because they talk about it in school, but also because all children have an innate spirituality and she’s exploring that. As adults we lose it because parents do what you’re doing…they get angry and shut it down and don’t nurture it.

If you don’t like the idea of Christianity, you could sit and talk to her about the big questions of life, or prayer, or ideas of God. You could explore that with her. But lots of parents and adults don’t, and that’s where the school are filling that gap.

It’s not about turning them in church going Christians. It’s about tuning them in to something bigger than themselves.

I would absolutely be pursing it, personally I'm not sure how I would feel about my DD attending (she is only 2 so not come across anything like this yet) but I would be really cross that there wasn't an alternative option offered to those who want it for whatever reason.
One of the issues as stated above will be freeing up staff to stay with them- however that might become a lot easier if the school let all parents know there is this alternative, they might suddenly find they have plenty staying behind so it's easier to manage.

I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. All you are doing is teaching your child to be intolerant to the wider world and all the different aspects to it. By going on about it like you are, you are creating the problem, but then that is true of a lot of atheists that never stop banging on about religion, even more so than your average practising christian.
I suppose you would object if it was a Christmas pantomime instead? because Cinderella or Snow White are fictional

@Screamingabdabz I have no problem with them learning about Christianity, as stated previously.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that one, as you are making assumptions about how we approach religion in our house and it will derail the thread.

We are tolerant of all religion, but don't practice any.

I'm not surprised you're unhappy with this OP, I would be. We lived rurally where only two of the 32 state primary schools in the area are secular, so I understand your frustration at the absurdity of this type of religious teaching nonsense being forced upon children by, effectively, the state.

Although our DC"s school was actually at the more Jesus-y end of the spectrum, it was very gentle and extremely tolerant. So although it isn't something I would have chosen, I was comfortable enough with it.

But the idea of telling little children that they are sinful is borderline abusive. I don't know what to suggest, OP, it's awful.

She will have forgotten about it in days. My children don’t have a religion, I am a Christian and their father is a Muslim. They celebrate Christmas and Eid and they are close to their cousins on dad’s side and know a lot about Islam. They went to church services now and then in primary school, and they’ve been to the mosque a handful of times (Eid sometimes and grandfathers funeral). None of this has made them a hard core Christian or Muslim. Maybe in the days surrounding the services they might have spoken about it more or asked about the religious practices their cousins operate. But for any young kid, here today gone tomorrow. It makes it hard for the school if 2 teachers stay back, if I felt as strongly as you I’d be going to pick my child up or keeping them off. Schools find it hard enough with sharing staff around the classrooms, sharing SEN staff as not enough staff taking these jobs. I just wouldn’t be making teachers jobs harder because I convinced myself my child was going to be corrupted as they went to 3 services a year. But some people do like to cause a nuisance, I’m not one of those people.

Quite the opposite, we talk about different religions and teaching them to be respectful of everyone and their beliefs. We give them the option of the church service, we wouldn't not allow them to go.

Is there no other primary school nearby as an alternative if you don't like what is being taught?

excuse me,@HoneyButterPopcorn
I am a humanist and I am an old school gender critical 2nd wave feminist who treats religions and especially religious people with respect
I just don't think christianity should have privileged access to young minds
religion doesn't have a monopoly on spirituality or deep questions

“Do you think it's also essential for the 'innate spiritual development' of children from Jewish/Muslim/Hindu families that they are forced to attend Christian services at school and taught Christianity as truth?”

They will need to have spiritual development opportunities too - it’s mandatory. And if those families send their child to a Christian school then they should expect a level of Christian practice that they will be allowed to opt out of. It doesn’t mean they might not like to look at the pretty coloured lights at Christmas in church, or to hear what a Christingle means, or light a candle and to know why the church is decorated in different colours at different times… and to maybe sit and reflect on the similarities and differences with their own religious practices.

It’s all good experiential stuff that children will benefit from - certainly more than being excluded and standing in a corridor with a text book while the other kids are joining in and getting on with it.

No - they all go to the service too.

Maybe it’s just the voice-pieces - the archaeologist one - who is giving them a bad name?

Alice Roberts? yes a sad disappointment on the bones front but I don't think I've heard her bad mouthing religion per se

This is a battle worth fighting. Endorsement of a religion by the education system is inherently unjust. You aren’t just fighting this battle for your children, you are fighting it for children who come next.

no, most children won’t adopt a religion by sitting through a few services, or even weekly services. That still doesn’t mean that they should be required to sit through the attempted indoctrination.

For those who think this is harmless because the children won’t necessarily become religious from attending services I think this misses an important point.
Schools should be teaching facts not promoting an ideology based on their own beliefs. How can children trust teachers to give them accurate information in their education if what is taught in one area is actually turns out to be an entirely subjective view with no evidential basis?

I'm the child who's parent ensured 'The word of God' would not be in my ears through school and I would not be part of any collective worship or carol or hymn singing. I would not be indoctrinated by them, I would instead be indoctrinated by my parent and their demands.
I was excluded and punished and rejected again and again and again in so many different ways because my parent's views were so, so, much more important than me. I could not be trusted to think for myself, or have any believe but that, that one adult or another adult demanded of me.
My parent was more extreme than you admit to here, but tread carefully, the damage of my parent being prepared to go to major lengths to make me different, and ensure that only they had ultimate power, has outlasted them, and did no one any favors, least of all me.

TBH in the end my life was so shit I sought out God. The silence back was deafening and every bit as painful as my parent was. There is no place for me but inside my head. Everyone else and what they thought and believed always came first. If I believe, I have been brainwashed by the church, if I don't, I have been brainwashed by my parent. I have been robbed of true choice. My parent wouldn't have cared, the important thing to them was to impose their views.

I took my children to churches and sent them to church schools (our only decent ones) under the banner of curious agnostics interested in knowing and debating what was said in them. I didn't sign the church register and was open as to why. They have also been to Friends meetings, temples and to mosque, and we have debated God, God's, Higher powers, and human need for Deity, and comfort of ritual, happily, along with Jesus as a historical figure, the more likely reality of his birth, and death, how everything ties together historically, and the numbers required to support traveling Maggi etc. They grew up understanding and enjoying stained glass, that Santa came from the tradition of Saint Nicholas, but we don't seek to ruin others fun.

Where I have come across things I found to be concerning, I have taken the lesson and shown my children how it applies in real life and turned it towards personal responsibility and a moral and self preserving code. The church demonstrates the weight of sin and how it allegedly can so easily be lifted and made good, I demonstrate the actual weight of living with what you know to be serious wrongdoing, and how hard it would be to be lifted depending on it's seriousness. If you wish to believe in quick fixes that's your choice.

I have always pointed them towards the understanding that religion is what comes between man and 'God' however you view the existence of the later, and there is as much good and beauty to be found as there is bad and ugliness.
It doesn't have to be 'You will believe, or disbelieve, only what I/they tell you.'

I understand that you've got a principle to uphold but I don't think will this last for very long.

I was also educated in a pretty similar setup and, along with my peer group, completely lost any interest in religion by the time we hit secondary school.

If you can bear to, I'd just tolerate it for a little while.