To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

This isn't a thread about war. It's about anti-Semitism. You sound like you should be joining the conflict in middle east board. I think you'll like it there, it's become a lovely little echo chamber of late.

Did Hamas hold Palestinian Women and girls in jails without trial or charge and was there evidence of sexual abuse against them? Or on other occasions?

No you asked this question with the intent of getting a "gotcha" moment as what we had been discussing was the use of sexual violence as a war crime, your little detour isn't valid, it isn't a gotcha, because it wasn't what we were discussing.

:)

Do keep up.

"Anti-semitism is bad. But..." is really not a very good look.

You should probably do some reading about Hamas atrocities against Palestinians, instead of arguing, particularly as you're claiming to be involved in some kind of human rights organisations. It's noones job to spoon feed you.

And so did this

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jun/23/texas-woman-allegedly-tried-to-drown-palestinian-american-girl-aged-3

It wasn't because of how I chose to criticize them.

I said this to the OP.

YABU, You see that people are appalled by the actions of Israel and you assign meaning to that and decide it's because people are anti-semitic.

To be clear I would feel the same about the actions of Israel no matter who the people were, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, it doesn't matter. It's not about the people, their race, ethnicity or religion, it's about the actions.

I also said
I for one definitely don't blame Jewish people for the actions of the Israeli government. Not all Jewish people even support the actions of the Israeli government.

That would be line with what I normally say. I do not blame the Jewish people at all for the actions of the Israeli government.

And I don't even blame Jewish people who do in fact support the Israeli governments actions. I can understand why normal every day citizens both can genuinely believe that they're on the right side and that the other side is the aggressor.

I like how everyone is using western media as their 'reliable source'

You should really learn about how to debate.

Do Hamas treat woman and girls in Gaza as they do because they are using sexual violence as a weapon of war? Or is this a different issue.

We had been discussing the fact that the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war was rarely discussed in this case prior to October 7th, despite evidence that it had been used.

What you have done is created a red herring, to avoid the real issue that YOU didn't care about it then.

No gotcha, just fallacious points.

Keep going.

Oh and someone called you anti-Semitic for that? Or did you assume someone thought of you as being anti-Semitic because you have decided that's what everyone does?

How else was I supposed to phrase it.

Anti-semitism is bad.

The behaviour of Israel is bad. And the history of Israel is not what people such as the OP seem to think it is.

Anything to disagree with there?

I was responding to the comment by DuskyBlue, Why are you telling me what points I should make on a public forum? I find that oddly controlling and indicative that you may wish to "control the narrative" as it is called in current parlance.

Why do you struggle to accept that legitimate criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic? Or that just because criticism challenges the opinions of pro-Israelis or possibly makes them uncomfortable, that does not mean there is anything wrong with the manner in which it is delivered? Posters like Aladdinzane and MoMo99, amongst many others, have made some excellent points in this regard and yet no-one who is pro-Israeli has given a convincing response in this regard.

Yes, I disagree with you feeling the need to mention Israel at all. It's perfectly ok to condemn anti-Semitism without trying to explain why anti-Semites are anti-Semitic.

I was responding to the OP. She frames criticism of Israel as anti-semitism.

So someone posted a link to an incident today were people were murdered in attacks on synagogues in Dagestan (i.e. not Israel, on a thread about antisemitism, and your response is 'oh but look what the IDF did'" Fucking hell.

Oh I see you don't even know that Hamas has been involved in civil wars, or what their tactics have been to rise to power.

Enough said, not on tiktok so doesn't register with you.

Insisting on talking about Israel on a thread about anti-Semitism is conflating the two. That is what I take issue with.

I have even said multiple times that criticising Israel isn't anti-Semitic in itself. I know you think they've made good points, but they really, really haven't. All they've done is consistently insist on talking about Israel on a thread about anti-Semitism.

How do you explain anti semitism before the state of Israel was created?

Someone asked me how I felt about other conflicts and named some of them, I explained that I don't follow all of the news anymore but that didn't mean that I couldn't have an opinion on this specific one.

And then that poster or another one listed out the numbers of dead in several other ongoing conflicts and said something about how I have no outrage for them so this was clearly just do with me being anti-Semitic because my condemnation was exclusive to Israel.

Whataboutism now?

Were we discussing the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war? In this context of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?

So making it about an internal/different conflict would be whataboutism no?

You just can't bring yourself to say that the Israeli's were using sexual violence. I have already condemned Hamas.

This is too easy. Dismissed again.

Oh so you weren't actually called anti-Semitic for what you'd said? That's good to know. Maybe you can stop saying that's the case then.

Well I clearly was.
That poster made out that because I didn't have an opinion on the other conflicts that that meant the only possible reason I had an opinion on the Israeli government was because I was anti-Semitic.

Eh? I haven't been asked to say anything, I just asked you your own question that you asked someone else. Anyone can trace the thread back. You've lost the plot.

Yet Israel uniquely intertwines race, religion, nationality and identity - this thread has gone on so long, I can't even remember if is is me or someone else who said this before. So in light of that and in the context of what I was responding to, it was relevant to mention.

I realise you think people who support those who are innocent civilians in Palestine are "very, very wrong", but many many people don't agree with that narrative. So thank you for your opinion, but it is not your role to police other people's free speech on a public forum. I disagree with your point and see no need to accommodate it.

Some reasons for anti-semitism: the Jewish community's preservation of its own culture, which to some extent prevented integration with the gentile community; the association of Jewish people with money lending; the Christian tendency to blame Jews for killing Christ (although Christ himself was Jewish). I did read a book on this, Why the Jews. That also suggested Arab nations are jealous of Israel as a 'beacon of democracy', but I feel that last reason is nonsense. As I understand it, Muslims accept Jews as 'People of the Book', but there is also feeling against them as Mohammed offered them the chance to convert, and they didn't take it.

I didn't mention Palestinians or their treatment. Stop putting words in my mouth. I haven't shared my political views on here because I'm discussing anti-Semitism.