To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Claiming what the previous poster has done is demonstrably untrue.

"can be demonstrably true/untrue when trying to argue about who lived where and moved where thousands of years ago."

The only people using historical biblical claims to justify actions are a part one group (not all) The other in this conflict has clear evidence of continuous occupation for hundreds/thousands of years.

Puzzledandpissedoff
That doesn't really make sense does it?
It's precisely because we know that Palestinians are not all Hamas supporters that I hoped enough would speak out against them before it was too late”

It makes complete sense.

You’d speak out, would you, against a terrorist organisation, knowing the life of your extended family was in your hands if you did so?

No, of course you wouldn’t. You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that peaceful Palestinians have the luxury of free will.

Nice attempt at deflection.

It's hardly a deflection if it relates to what you just posted.

agreed, hence why this is another deflection.

As a poster mentioned other indigenous people on this thread, I found this article and thought it might be of interest to some on here. I realise she's not speaking for all Maori's but it's worth reading her take.

Put simply, Trotter does not believe that Jews are a colonial, occupying force in Israel, as some have positioned them to be. “They have more than a three and a half thousand year connection with the land,” she says. “Their ancestors have lived there since time immemorial."

She concluded: “It is not difficult to see that the Jewish people fulfil the requirements for Indigeneity.” In fact, she finds much similarity, even overlap, between Jewish culture and her own Maori heritage.
“Dispossession, disenfranchisement, discrimination; all these things that also the Jewish people have suffered form,” Trotter says. “We see it and recognize it. And they had the same Indigenous longing for their land as we have for our land.”

Trotter notes that there has been pushback to the notion of Jews as Indigenous to Israel, even within the global Indigenous community. But she says much of that has been rooted in antisemitism.

“We’re living in a time when antisemitism is is reaching horrendous levels,” she says.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/jews-are-an-indigenous-people-to-israel-says-maori-director-of-indigenous-embassy-jerusalem/ar-BB1o2lPj

But it did relate.

Getting confused now?

Maybe time for more insults?

no it didn't, you may as well have just come on here and posted I'm right every post

I agree that the depiction of Israel as a colonial power may not be accurate when it comes to Jewish people moving back to Israel to live there. In fact many studies show returning Jews have very similar genealogy to Palestinians

However the creation of the modern state of Israel was most certainly colonial with the population of the area not given self determination.

Well, you have made it pretty easy with your very poor level of contributions.

ah yes more insults

It's not just biblical claims. It's historic fact @Aladdinzane

You yourself acknowledged that.

Some, maybe many, of the Palestinians today are descended from Arabs who moved to the area in more recent times (when I say recent, I include going back a couple of centuries).

However, as you yourself said, other Palestinians are the descendents of the Jewish people who lived there thousands of years ago.

Yes, as you say many converted from Judaism (often, but not always, this was forced conversion) but their ethnic origins are as you said descended from the indigenous Jewish people of thousands of years ago. Not all but many. Some might be descended from other groups like the Samaritans.

I found another article about historical evidence from archeological digs. Pottery found dated 2000 years old with Hebrew writing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/28/opinion/jewish-history-israel.html

"It's not just biblical claims. It's historic fact"

What are you talking about?

I said biblical claims have no legitimacy.

"Some, maybe many, of the Palestinians today are descended from Arabs who moved to the area in more recent times"#

Nope, the overwhelming number Palestinians have genealogy which traces them back directly to the levant, nor the Arab peninsular. THis has been shown in many studies.

However, the reason may claim this is so that they can make some historic genetic claim to the land over the Palestinians. It's poor and doesn't wash. Its so that they can paint the Palestinians as invaders whilst the Israeli's are the rightful occupiers.

more insults

carry on

Aww, remind me of how your contributions have gone "tik tok knowedge etc"

and that wasn't an insult, it was an observation.

:)

Predictable again though, since the urge to slam Israel and its people often appears greater than the concern for those they profess to support

Reminds me very much of Golda Meir's view that: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

carry on

Second THIS

Victim blaming again.

Maybe Israel should stop committing war crimes and human rights abuses and allow refugees the right to return, which by the way it promised to do if granted membership of the UN, and didn't.

It's hard to discuss history with someone who has taken it upon themselves to decide when relevant history starts, isn't it?? They literally ignore all history until the time it starts suiting their chosen narrative 🤦🏻‍♀️ Thanks for trying though!

Well, you have already made claims that were demonstrably incorrect historically, therefore it's perfectly fine to question other points that you made.

You've made points about "many" Palestinians being descended from Arabs, which again has significant use in the propaganda of certain groups too, as well as significantly in racism.
Which bit of history would you want to discuss?

I'd personally like to discuss the bits of history where anti-Semitism has been an issue, but that doesn't seem likely at this point.

Also, please stop trying to insinuate that I'm spreading propaganda.

Bunnyasmyname
**
Reminds me very much of Golda Meir's view that: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

As disgusting today as it was then.