To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Maybe you've just not understood where the boundaries are between legitimate criticism of the Israeli government & antisemitism?

Claiming that Jews can't be trusted to identify anti-semitism is in itself an antisemitic trope!

Which government are you referring to in your last sentence?

The British government does support Israel. British Jews vote in Britain.

Are they wrong to proscribe a terrorist organization akin to a misogynistic death cult?

Are they wrong to help Israel defend itself from Iran & it's proxies - which is an existential threat?

What do you think will happen to the UK & the USA if jihadism is not strongly deterred?

Because Jews are always the canary in the coalmine.

It means in general as a population, most people do not have any problem at all with Jewish people. Not at all. We have no reason to.

Just love it when the non-Jews tell us we're imagining antisemitism. Especially when their own post reeks of it.

Evidently that's exactly what you seem to believe (I don't share your view).

The indigenous Jewish people of Israel were forcibly expelled from Israel for centuries. Others, as you say, converted. Often by force. And many were expelled from surrounding countries in 1948 when Israel regained independence.

Genetically Jewish people are the indigenous of Israel." So are the Palestinians have also been in continual occupation.
As you pointed out in your earlier post, many of those Palestinians (and almost certainly any who have continuous occupation centuries back to before Israel was first under occupation), are the descendants of the Jewish indigenous people.

As you say, many converted to other religions (often by force, although sometimes choice) and regardless of whichever religion, as you say, they're genetically ethnicity-wise descendants of the indigenous Jewish people.

Also there is a separate Palestinian state. And in 1948, when Israel regained independence, a large part of the land known at the time as Palestine became modern day Jordan.

Noteworthy too, is that Israel has non Jewish members of its government. I don't believe Palestine has any Jewish members of its government.

You've just repeated the same thing with no explanation

The reason you can't see anti-Semitism is because you're not looking for it, and because apparently you're only looking for "outright" instances and ignoring the constant underlying current of it. Which is basically what this thread is about. But of course, you and others on here have gone to great lengths to try and ensure the topic of the thread is derailed. As per usual.

It's quite simple, really - anti-Semitism is on the rise because anti-Semites are feeling emboldened.

OP also basically excused the deaths of women and children "just because Hamas started it"

I guess let's just brush over the deaths of many terrorist attacks in Uk and America because well we decided to invade Afghanistan

"Claiming that Jews can't be trusted to identify anti-semitism is in itself an antisemitic trope!"

Quite clearly i was saying that the Israeli government have been using antis-semitism as a way to deflect criticism from the international community. Does this mean you aren't allowed to do this? Or does this mean any criticism of anyone Jewish, Israeli or the actions of the Israeli government can be dismissed by stating that the person/organisation is anti-Semitic?

"Are they wrong to help Israel defend itself from Iran & it's proxies - which is an existential threat?"

They clearly are wrong for allowing continued sale of weapons to Israel whilst it breaks the rules of warfare and has allegations of major war crimes against it. They do not supply Iran with arms ( well the US did but...)

"What do you think will happen to the UK & the USA if jihadism is not strongly deterred?"

You might want to look at how the UK and USA have caused many of the issues in the Middle East ( starting with Iran) the US and UK have been some of the biggest targets of terror attacks.

@Aladdinzane

I won't keep posting on the history and situation of indigenous people of other countries on this thread as worried I'll be derailing. But just to reply to your questions. I think you need to read up on the history and current circumstances of indigenous people in the countries mentioned in our above posts.

Efforts have been made to improve things and there's, I understand, been a lot of progress, but there's still issues to this day. In America and Australia they're overrepresented in prisons, for example. That's just one example. Other issues too.

But that's a subject for another thread.

@HowoftenshouldIdothis

"Also there is a separate Palestinian state. And in 1948, when Israel regained independence, a large part of the land known at the time as Palestine became modern day Jordan."

The fact that you could state this with such confidence demonstrates you don't know anywhere near enough about the topic to be discussing it.

FGS you know what it means.

Most people do not have a problem with Jewish people.

There might be some genuine anti-Semitic people out there but they are not representative of the rest of the population. I have certainly never met one.

It's not difficult to understand. You're just deliberately choosing not to.

The definition of any form of racism cannot only belong to a particular group. That is not to say that the group affected should not be front and centre of the discussion. But it also has to be objectively reasonable to other people who are being asked to be mindful of a boundary, so there is discussion. How you frame it would be a trope, but that is not what is being said by most people.

I see this as akin to the borders between for example France and Spain - the border between them is where they agree it to be. This is nothing unusual in law - people of colour for instance, have been told by courts in some cases that what they have felt is racism, objectively just is not. This tussle as to boundaries and lines plays out in all sorts of contexts in current discourse as to what are legitimate criticisms and what should not be considered so.

@HowoftenshouldIdothis #

"Efforts have been made to improve things and there's, I understand, been a lot of progress, but there's still issues to this day."

Again, you don't understand or know enough about any of this to discuss it.

This is true, but it's interesting that every poll suggests the UK government are about to get an unprecedented pasting, whereas every poll conducted among Palestinians indicates massive support for their current leadership

Can you explain how what I said is incorrect?

It's a fact.

No derailing, at at all, go look at the start of the thread and what is discussed, there has been a continuation of that discussion.

There are less "outright" Anti-Semitic statements than there were Islamophobic on the last thread yes, and that is a direct comparison. Unfortunately, we have not reached a stage where every form of racism has such a specific list of things that count as racism towards a certain group like IHRA one, whilst I think we should, it also makes it far more difficult to find the underlying current and more subtle versions. So the comparison is very hard, and therefore I only discussed the outright examples.

Anti-Semitism is on the increase yes, but there is also a wider trend for all forms of racism to be on the increase, do we think the two are separate?

Seriously, this is very embarrassing for you.

Not a fact, you are wrong.

Do you think this might have something to do with the extreme situation they are in?

I'd also question the reliability of polls taken in a warzone with millions of displaced people.

It is true that our government is about to get the boot, but do you really think Palestinians would dare to voice disapproval of Hamas without fear of retribution?

I just don't understand why when a Jewish person says "stop saying that, it's anti-Semitic" people would choose to ignore it because they know better?

Again, if you haven't seen as much outright anti-Semitism as you saw Islamophobia it's because you've been ignoring it or just not seen it because you don't actually understand what anti-Semitism is.

It is indeed sad, but then few will appreciate their obvious antisemitism being pointed out any more than other racists do, which may well be why so much filth has been deleted and why someone who mentioned swastikas being taken to marches - on a thread querying if jews are scapegoats - are told they're deflecting

Incredible really, but then this is why I said earlier there's no reasoning with mindless hatred and that all we can do is protect ourselves against it

The only thing that's embarrassing is that you know full well that when it comes down to it you'll be unable to explain the fact that the Palestinians didn't demand a state in Judea and Samaria.

Hence not even trying to address it at all in the first place.

" just don't understand why when a Jewish person says "stop saying that, it's anti-Semitic" people would choose to ignore it because they know better?"

What is Anti-Semitic in what I've said?

"it's because you've been ignoring it or just not seen it because you don't actually understand what anti-Semitism is."

Sorry I really do understand, and there have been outright examples of anti-Semitism here, just fewer of them than there were on the other thread.

:)

Keep going, you really are embarrassing yourself now

Says the guy who doesn't even realise he's posting on the shoulders of Israeli innovations