To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

This is actually so embarrassing for you

The words from the Chief Sir Mark Rowsley is clear on that which is why, despite terrorism and hate crime laws that can be used, the Chief wants it to be made more explicit in UK law with it dealing more directly with extremism

Remembering that he also said "there's no point arresting hundreds of people if it's not prosecutable, that's just inflaming things", I'm not sure that making the law even more explicit would make any difference

Being explicit isn't going to reduce the chants or antisemitic threats, any more than the laws around actual violence have stopped the hideous increase in attacks on jews; in fact it may even increase them among the noisier types who insist "you can't tell me what to do - don't you know children are dying"

Unfortunately we can't reason or legislate our way out of mindless hatred; all we can do is protect ourselves against it, and sadly sometimes even that doesn't work

Fortunately for me, you are another one who's chosen to misinterpret Met Police Chief Sir Mark Rowsley's actual words in order to suit your own specific narrative.

Only one of us actually bothered to quote him directly and it wasn't you or the other poster.

Oh, I accept other people have different opinions which is why I don't actually bother to try changing them. But I don't accept that all opinions are equal since they're not. 🤷‍♂️🧐

And because they had that "misfortune" it was fine for them to be raped kidnapped and killed?

Depending on where you check, there are either no Jews left in Yemen (i.e. complete ethnic cleansing), one Jew left who is trapped in prison there, or some reports say 5 elderly remaining members of the ancient Jewish community still there.

One of these last lingering elderly Jews died last week, and as there were no Jews left to bury him, in a lovely act, his Muslim neighbours volunteered to give him a proper send off.

There were foreign nationals too. They weren't all Israeli. Wonder if that poster would justify that?

The last '86 years'

Israel: Quasicrystals, Pressure Bandages, RSA encrytpion, Intel Processors, Game Theory, Endocopies... innovations in just about every field you can think of disproportionate to population size

Iran: Terrorist Groups, and Proxywars via Palestine. No, nothing else.

Feel free to throw away your Israeli influenced computer if you're that up in arms about all this.

Blows my mind that a couple of threads outlining the abject wickedness of Hamas have attracted tops a few dozen posts, but one about antisemitism runs and runs and runs with lots of antisemitic and borderline-antisemitic comments being made.

The idea of Israeli Jews as white colonisers is such bullshit. Many of the European Jews who have arrived in Israel over the years have been fleeing persecution and antisemitism. Most of the Middle Eastern Jews who immigrated had been expelled from or fled countries where the Jewish community predated Islam.

But why let the facts get in the way?

And I wholly reject all your narratives and think your arrogance is on full display in thinking that your opinions are superior to anyone else's - they are not. You just proved the point that many have made about the superiority claims in the OP's original post. Result.

Waffle waffle interpretation of quotes and facts to suit your narrative hasn't convinced a single person responding on this thread. So keep going - I doubt anyone reads through propaganda tomes or pays them any heed.

Yes. He’s a very brave man. I stumbled upon him a few months ago. He’s spoken at the UN more than once I believe and has also spoken at US colleges as well as doing TV interviews. He’s extremely impassioned and knows his stuff, having also worked with counter terrorism.

He released a book in 2010 and there was also a documentary I think. I haven’t seen either but I may download the book this evening if I remember.

Funnily enough it was him that the SM post, that I referred to in my OP, was about. A young lady who identified herself as Palestinian with a US accent did a whole video saying that he doesn’t actually exist, is a US actor, doesn’t have the facial features of a Palestinian and everything he says is a lie. Thousands of likes and responses agreeing.

It was pretty gobsmacking how easily people believe what they want to believe. It made me pretty angry given what Mr Yousef has risked not only to prevent terrorist attacks while working with Israel for 10 years but also the threat to his life by speaking out since.

Yeah well your narrative hasn't changed anything since Israel's inception and it never will.

Not sure how many people have to die before you get the message.

Tell yourself that. Doesn't bother me - bye

Don't need to tell myself that, it's been reiterated and made pretty clear since last October. Carry on trying to win the hearts and minds of people with no influence on the matter whatsoever - bye.

MoMo999 is right. For fans of quotes:

https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-met-response-to-terror-attacks-in-israel-and-ongoing-military-action-in-gaza-474080

"One particular chant that has been the subject of extensive discussion is ‘Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea’. This is a chant that has been frequently heard at pro-Palestinian demonstrations for many years. We are well aware of the strength of feeling in relation to it.

While we can envisage scenarios where chanting these words could be unlawful, such as outside a synagogue or Jewish school, or directly at a Jewish person or group intended to intimidate, it is likely that its use in a wider protest setting, such as we anticipate this weekend, would not be an offence and would not result in arrests."

Grown ups realise that they can only negotiate with a superior force with pleasantries.

Well, factually, John Von Neurmann and Oskar Morgensten invented Game Theory, and one was Hungarian American one was German Austrian, not Israeli, Intel was founded by Noyce and Moore in California and the first processors built there ( they do have a factory/research centre in Israel but the first processors weren't invented there....

I do love it when this claim about "achievements" against others is made, it does rather suggest you think there is a racial superiority.

And still neither you nor the other poster can produce the Chief's own words to support your claims yet insist you're correct.

Now, that's what I call arrogance! 🧐

That particular quote is the Met Police saying its conditional and absolutely CAN be a crime.

They didn't state its not a crime in the manner you've been suggesting!

Hence, the below:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67255538

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67327496.amp

There has always been an anti-semite undertone in England. King Edward I expelled England's entire Jewish population in the autumn of 1290. England was one of the first countries to target Jews in this way.

During WWII, and in light of the holocaust and the ritual slaughtering of millions of Jews, this was dialled back. But fast forward less than a century later, antisemitism is a huge thing. It's so ingrained in our culture and society, most don't see it, let alone realise they're part of the problem. Many of the posts in this thread are testament to this.

Palestine is a separate issue and the current horror of what is happening there should not be bought into this thread. However, and since it has, the area was originally home to Jews long before it was designated Palestine. It was the Roman emperor Hadrian who expelled the Jews. And then many centuries later that it became predominantly settled by Arabs although some Jews did remain.

As for the current status quo, yes, Israel's behaviour is abhorrent but so is Hamas'. Many seem to forget that Palestine/Hamas does not protect its own in the same way Israel does. Instead of using money to build underground shelters like Israel does, Hamas spends its money only on weapons. Many of its leaders don't even live in Palestine due to the chaos and danger they create. Hamas also uses innocent Palestines as humans shields, and why the Israel hostages are imprisoned with families, in hospitals etc. This way, if Israel try to rescue or target these places, innocents are killed, and so Israel can once more be at fault. But yes, let's blame Israel for trying to protect and rescue its own. It's a shame Hamas doesn't protect Palestinians.

All of this information is readily available yet many choose to overlook it.

@FactsNotFictionOnly

I've found the video (his speech to the UN).
Some posters might complain it's on the GB News website but it's also on YouTube. I don't know how to link YouTube.

Yes, very brave man, and his speech is so powerful.
I'm interested now in reading his book. Must have a look for it.

His desire is for peace, and although he supports Israel in this conflict and places the blame on Hamas (who he believes are the enemy of Palestinians), as he says in the video, as a Palestinian himself he loves his people.

It's quite long. About 30 minutes but well worth posters here listening to it all, because he makes points and gives explanations of the situation that can't be fully appreciated if only listening to the start or by skipping through it.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/son-of-hamas-co-founder-denounces-organization-at-un/ar-AA1kq9ie

Even funnier when someone goes to the lengths of trying to argue only the people that invented these things had a significant influence on them. The first IBM PC used an Israeli Intel chip and there was a Nobel Prize awarded for Game Theory which you might want to look up.

Also nice of you to get back on topic and point out some innovative Jewish people, even though you did it because you were trying to fit a strange narrative about racial superiority.

I mean, the OP makes some factual errors in her original post, ignoring the history of the Palestinian nationalist movement from the 19th century and other parts of her narrative make me think that this is a politically provocative post.

I also note that there is a going narrative here that this conflict began on October 7th. I mean it is very convenient if you are a supporter of the Israeli Government to portray it as the innocent and wronged party ( with a right to defend it's self) however, if you want to be accurate and say that this is a long standing conflict, you must also consider its actions over the last 76 years in which it has repeatedly broken international law, violated human rights and committed war crimes. There is no innocent party in this conflict at all.

BTW if its all about Hamas, why are Israeli forces ( and citizens) still breaking international law in the West Bank and attacking Palestinians there?

The history of antisemitism and its impacts on Jewish communities is of course one to take seriously, and to be solemnly remembered. We should firmly reject the ideas that have driven it as well as.

However, this should not stop us from examining the reasons for this conflict properly. The British and the Balfour declaration, the history of the Israeli and Palestinian militias in the inter war period, and what actually happened ( and had been planned to happen) to Palestinian communities who were driven out in 1948.

This is also why it gets more attention than other conflicts, it isn't that people hold Israel to a different standard (although in its defence they often cite the "only democracy and law abiding country in the middle east" thing, kind of ironic), its that this conflict and the issue around it have now been going on for over 100 years and the descendents of those impacted on both sides now reside globally as well as in their historically geographic areas

I'll add more later...

But the processor chip wasn't invented in Israel, and the first was launched more than a decade after its invention, claiming it as an innovation by an Israeli or from Israel is inaccurate. Standing on the shoulders of giants is not innovation.

Oh and "Nobel peace prize for game theory" there have been several, you might want to look it up.

Funny that you still want to make this claim of racial superiority though.

At the moment, yes, I’m really angry about it. I think it’s honestly inhuman not to be at this point. The footage coming out of Gaza is literally nightmarish, I’ve never seen anything like it in my life.

I don’t think it’s derailing at all. The op says ‘It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started..’ This statement is honestly obscene in light of the atrocities Israel has committed since October 7th (and decades before). Israels’ war crimes and ongoing genocidal attacks cannot be explained by anything, in my opinion. The level of disdain for human life Israel has shown is completely horrifying.

I’m not excusing antisemitism at all, and I’m not equating antisemitism with anything.