To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

I don't know why they would even have a court case since quite a few arm chair judges sitting at home have managed to determine categorically it's genocide based on a few news clips.

I completely agree OP. This quote from former chief rabbi Jonathan Sacks in 2018 sums it up for me:

One of the enduring facts of history is that most antisemites do not think of themselves as antisemites. We don’t hate Jews, they said in the Middle Ages, just their religion. We don’t hate Jews, they said in the nineteenth century, just their race. We don’t hate Jews, they say now, just their nation state.

In all other conflicts in other nations - Russia, China etc - people are fully capable of separating the actions of a government from sweeping generalisations about everyone who lives in that country. No one argues that Russia shouldn’t exist as a nation state, or that all Chinese are evil. But when it comes to Israel & Jews, different rules apply it seems.

Yes and the police addressed it in a proportionate way.

For example when they don't prosecute theft under £200 as another person on here mentioned when tagging me, they say they are prioritising their resources and they are not pursuing this crime. They have never said it is not a crime.

However, they have said the River to Sea chant on a march is not a crime. So yes I still find your interpretation of this odd, amongst other odd interpretations that are propagated.

This is it.

The recent Pew publication is worth a read (unlike most of the posts on these threads, for me).

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/how-israeli-society-has-unified-and-divided-in-wartime/

And the West Bank
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/settlements-and-violence-in-the-west-bank-and-east-jerusalem/#:~:text=Israelis%20are%20divided%20on%20the,unsure%20or%20decline%20to%20answer.)

You undermine any argument you make with such ill-founded assertions.

I certainly respect the 600 finest and independent legal minds in the British legal profession, including Lord Sumption, who wrote a letter to the UK government on this topic, over such derogatory assertions or those made by lawyers funded by Israel.

Israel has already lost the argument when it thinks it is above the courts or the law - rather than assuming every single institution is biased against them, if the realisation dawned that they might also be doing something wrong, that would be the biggest mindset shift which is needed to achieve the first steps to peace.

@HowoftenshouldIdothis said: "I feel a bit confused about Ireland. Some previous posters have said Ireland tends to identity with Palestinians. Wouldn't it make more sense to identify with Israel? Ireland was under occupation for about 800 years. Israel was under various occupations for longer. (It was the Romans who renamed it Palestine, something they did to emphasis their occupation, similar maybe to when Britain renamed Ireland as Eire). So wouldn't Ireland emphasise with a country that was also under centuries of occupation?"

You have to first understand that human beings aren't rational beings most of the time and they do a lot of after the event rationalisation to justify their views, especially problematic ones. Especially those.

Ireland wasn't "under occupation for 800 years". This is a after the event rationalisation built in order to justify Republican crimes, especially those of the Provos. Its a selective cherry picking of history that ignores the times in history when Irish people had no real issues with their neighbours in Great Britain.

I recommend Professor Brian Walker's book "Dancing To History's Tune" which analyses Republican and Loyalist historical narratives in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

To elaborate on it here would seriously derail the thread.

Also, the UK didn't rename the Republic "Éire" - that's one of two names in the southern Irish Constitution. As usually happens with native English speakers, they simply used it without the fada in the same way we do the same with Mexico which also has one in Spanish. In Irish Gaelic, "Éire" rendered as "Eire" is a different word, but solely English speaking British people wouldn't have known that at the time.

The other thing you have to factor in is the propaganda efforts of the various iterations of the IRA, especially the 1920s and 1970-2005 ones, plus Provisional Sinn Féin. There is a close relationship between the Provisionals and PLO/Hamas.

The final thing to understand is the incorrect framing of conflict as Natives v Colonialists instead of indigenous people v indigenous people who cannot agree on how to share land and/or govern themselves. Under the Colonialism theory, they understand themselves to have the same common enemy, i.e, the Brits.

Despite the fact that partition in both places was very, very different, i.e. competing groups of Irishmen themselves forced the UK Government to propose partition whereas in the Middle East it was the United Nations as a COLLECTIVE that did so.

In short, Professor Brian Walker's book emphasises how history is mined and abused in order to hold a grievance against another group.

That's why the late Nationalist leader John Hume said that it isn't what is true that matters. But what people PERCEIVE to be true.

I always* *that perception isn't the same as reality.

Anyway, I hope that helps give you some food for thought on that particular issue you brought up.

But it will seriously derail the thread if delved into here too much. 👍

I posted last night about the son of one of the Hamas founders, Mosab Hassan Yousef. He gave an impassioned speech at the UN about Hamas and in defence of Israel. I'll try to find the video later.

Obviously he's just one individual and it's just his view, but it's an interesting and thought provoking perspective from someone who wasn't only once a Hamas insider but was brought up in their ideology from young childhood (he was engaged in terrorist activities for Hamas at just 10 years old).

As an adult he converted to Christianity and was accepted for asylum in America.

He's spoken a lot about how he was brought up to hate Israel and Jewish people, and how he believes Hamas don't care about Palestinians. He can't ever return to Palestine because of death threats against him.

What long narratives have I made? It's almost like you're trying to paint me as a completely different person to who I actually am.

The Met Police never actually said that chant wasn't a crime.

They said there's a GAP in the law when it comes to the police being able to effectively and efficiently deal with it. The fact they said there's no point in arresting people for the chant if it's not prosecutable more than bears that out!

It's non-prosecutable due to a gap in the law dealing with extremism. It certainly doesn't equate to them saying its not a crime.

It is interesting that Russia and China are always bandied about in this context when they are repressive, illiberal regimes that severely curtail the freedoms of their own people, but Israel is meant to be a beacon of liberal democracy as another poster referenced.

Thank you @DownNative Very interesting. I don't want to derail the thread so I'll have a look for that book to learn more.

ie not a crime. So more linguistic gymnastics from you doesn't change that I am afraid. The logic gymnastics on here are mind boggling and totally unconvincing.

Not so. The words from the Chief Sir Mark Rowsley is clear on that which is why, despite terrorism and hate crime laws that can be used, the Chief wants it to be made more explicit in UK law with it dealing more directly with extremism.

To use terrorism and hate crime laws would be an indirect way of dealing with it.

In short, the Met Police wants to take direct action against those chants but desires a law directly for it.

The Chief's words is posted by me on the previous page. Very telling the poster who made the claim failed to produce the Met Police's actual words. 🧐

No, the idea of excessive Jewish influence comes from an anti-Semitic tripe that goes back millenia.

How do you feel about what happened to the Jews in Yemen?

About the same as I feel about what’s happening to all kinds of people in Yemen.

You are another one with long narrative posts that neither bear our facts and nor indeed do the imaginary "silent majority" agree with. I guess you will just have to accept other people have different opinions. The Met quite clearly said it was not a crime in the context of a march and the Police Commissioner has created a diplomatic response to having his throat jumped down by lobby groups and the now thanfully twice sacked Suella Braverman.

What did the people who were raped killed and murdered to to taunt Hamas exactly?

That’s not about whether or not they are Jewish. It’s about Israel as an utterly repulsive nation.
Pardon?

On a thread about whether Jews are scapegoats of humanity, your contribution is that Israelis brought Oct 7th on themselves.

Yes. I think that’s a fair analysis of the history since 1948.

They had the misfortune to have a government who for the past 86 years has constantly acted as the aggressor, expanding their territory through violence and encouraging their citizens to live in land which is not theirs.

What do you think the foreign aid workers, the Palestinian doctors, the children did to deserve the ongoing attacks of the Israeli military?

Im not talking about the current civil war in Yemen if that's what you thought.