To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

I’m not going to deal with your gaslighting.
I already told you, I only agreed with the post I quoted.
That’s all.

Now if you want / try to make this into a forever back and forth thing, just letting you know I’m not interested.

If you want to play a victim, you do that.
Leave me out of it.

This is the same Met police that won't pursue you if you've nicked less than 200 quids worth of goods from a shop.

That's a very odd interpretation. I would be more inclined to believe they don't have the man power to deal with it.

You quoted a post, that was bitching that their bullshit hateful post was deleted and have tried to rework it into oooh we can’t speak about that, which no you fucking can’t because hate speech has always been banned on mumsnet.

the ones gaslighting are the ones trying to rewrite their hateful deleted posts.

How interesting that you actually appear to have the word terrorist as part of your user name

Not so as the social convention is what leads to words evolving with new definitions in time.

According to IHRA, antisemitism is: “a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

APPG’s definition states “Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness.”

Islamophobia includes Arabs since they are predominantly Muslim.

Antisemitism refers to Jewish people.

The word antisemitism was literally coined to mean hatred of Jews

ANTISEMITISM, hatred of and hostility toward the Jews, at times including the belief that they pose a threat to society and should be eliminated. The term was coined in 1879 by the German anti-Jewish writer Wilhelm Marr to refer specifically to “scientific” rather than “religious” opposition to Jews, but it is generally applied to all manifestations of hatred of the Jewish people.
Oxford reference
https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780199730049.001.0001/acref-9780199730049-e-0207

anti-Semitism, (see Researcher’s Note) hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group. The term anti-Semitism was coined in 1879 by the German agitator Wilhelm Marr to designate the anti-Jewish campaigns underway in central Europe at that time. Nazi anti-Semitism, which culminated in the Holocaust, had a racist dimension in that it targeted Jews because of their supposed biological characteristics—even those who had themselves converted to other religions or whose parents were converts. This variety of anti-Jewish racismdates only to the emergence of so-called “scientific racism” in the 19th century and is different in nature from earlier anti-Jewish prejudices. https://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism brittanica

Why not use the term 'anti-Jews' instead of boiling down all of Semites, to Jews only? That is very undermining of other Semites

I wonder if you feel this also applies to those who prefer alternative definitions of racism?

The OED's original version is "The inability or refusal to recognize the rights, needs, dignity, or value of people of particular races or geographical origins. More widely, the devaluation of various traits of character or intelligence as 'typical' of particular peoples", but on here we're often told that we must now accept that it actually means "prejudice plus power"

Or is it once again that jews are being singled out to have it explained to them?

As they haven't said that, I'd be inclined to say it appears to be yourself who is putting an interpretation on it that you would like to be true.

Have you tried to report a crime recently?

Well, well, well you came along later than I expected. I had envisaged there would be attempts to have this thread pulled last night because as the thread has very clearly highlighted, people don’t like admitting antisemitism. Do you think that might be because they know it’s wrong?

I started this thread firmly in support of a perpetually persecuted group’s right not to be persecuted. Explain why you do not believe that?

I am perfectly at liberty to respond to comments on this thread and am perfectly entitled to my own opinion which is shared by many, including military experts, academics and legal experts. The claim of genocide was brought up by another poster and I responded.

No, this thread should not be pulled because I have a different opinion to the pro Palestine lobby that has been firmly embedded on MN since Oct 7th. That can’t be denied as a cursory glance over the hundreds of threads on the CITME board evidences that.

This is the closest I’ve been to getting my head around it all. Thanks for that!

OK, since you're arrogantly denying us the use of the (centuries-long) word 'antisemitism' to describe racist hostility towards us, I won't use it here. Happy? How about 'Jew-baiting'? Which is exactly what you've been doing throughout this thread.

This 💯

If you're interpreting the met police's view on things as gospel, I guess you think that shoplifting is ok?

I'm afraid that is NOT what the Chief of the Met Police actually said at the outset! 👇

"There is scope to be much sharper in how we deal with extremism within this country. The law was never designed to deal with extremism, there's a lot to do with terrorism and hate crime but we don't have a body of law that deals with extremism, and that is creating a gap."

And:

"We've got these big protests and some of what goes on there, people do find it upsetting and distasteful and sometimes people give an instinctive view that must not be legal.

But there's no point arresting hundreds of people if it's not prosecutable, that's just inflaming things.

We will robustly enforce up to the line of the law. We're going to be absolutely ruthless, and we have been, and you'll see many more arrests over the next week or so."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67255538

Then, the Met took action vis a vis an adviser who chanted "from the river to the sea!". 👇

"A spokesperson for the Met Police said: "We regularly engage with a whole range of community groups, many of which hold strongly opposing views.

"This instance has highlighted past language and views expressed by Attiq Malik that appear antisemitic and contrary with our values."

The spokesperson added that the force would immediately cease its relationship with Mr Malik while it investigated the matter."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67327496.amp

What the Met Police say they want via their Chief is legislation that deals directly with extremism of the kind we're seeing in anti-Israel marches. In other words, they're saying they don't quite have the legal tools to deal with that type of extremism.

So, I'm afraid it appears YOU are putting your own interpretation on what the Met Police said at the outset. 🧐

They're misrepresenting the view of the Met Police on the matter. See my other post.

You seem to like directing what other people should comment on, along with providing long narratives supporting a particular view which is not accepted by many people, and has been easily refuted a number of times whether or not you chose to accept that. We have different opinions and I suspect that will always remain the case.

I think the ICJ trying Israel for genocide prosecuted by S. Africa and 13 other nations (who have joined or say they want to join the case - including Belgian, Ireland and Spain) and the ICC issuing arrest warrants for Sinwar and Netanyahu are good steps. I think if Biden showed the same resolve Regan did when he picked up the phone and told Israel to stop it, would bring the current war to an immediate end.

Both sides have extremists that commit war crimes. Both sides need new and moderate governments to neogiate a peaceful two state solution that is considered objectively fair.

Either side ignoring all criticism through sheer bloody minded belief that they are right won't move things forward. You cannot kill an ideology - change comes from changing hearts and minds, so diplomacy is the only solution. If Israel was subject to tough love from the US and sanctions when it commits war crimes, it wouldn't so readily be in a position to act out the part it plays in the wrong-doing by both sides that has long pre-dated Oct 7th.

Century-long doesn't necessarily makes it right, I hope you agree. Can you and other posters stop calling me arrogant for having different opinion, that doesn't show you in good light, thank you

You might find the attachment below in visual form helpful. 👇

The UN Women's Group did not say anything initially because there was no evidence of it

No evidence? We all saw the horrific footage of violently raped women. I couldn't even look at most of it. It was horrific.

It’s very easy to find much more unbiased sources than yours explaining the horrific history of Israel’s creation.

Seeing as Israel was created 1000s of years ago, I assume you're talking about when the modern state regained independence? Generally when any country fights for regaining independence it's not a completely peaceful process. Israel's sounds like it was less bloody than when many other countries fought to regain independence.

I don't know if I'm going to explain my next pondering well especially as I'm not an expert, not Jewish, and don't want to offend anyone by getting things confused or wrong.

I feel a bit confused about Ireland. Some previous posters have said Ireland tends to identity with Palestinians. Wouldn't it make more sense to identify with Israel? Ireland was under occupation for about 800 years. Israel was under various occupations for longer. (It was the Romans who renamed it Palestine, something they did to emphasis their occupation, similar maybe to when Britain renamed Ireland as Eire). So wouldn't Ireland emphasise with a country that was also under centuries of occupation?

I hope I'm not offending anyone with my question. It just seems a bit confusing to me.

Interesting how?

Absolutely agree!

Yes those popular liberals in the ICJ who are analysing on a factual basis whether genocide is being committed, having allowed S.Africa to proceed with prosecuting its case. No-one is above the rule of law or being subject to its scrutiny - however outraged the response from the US or Israel. I hope the ICC is also able to make its own independent judgment of matters within its remit, without the undue pressure that its prosecutor referred to from those who consider themselves not popular liberals.