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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Bloom15 · 23/06/2024 13:33

Meraas · 22/06/2024 23:01

It’s ironic that you’re terrified about a second holocaust when there’s a genocide of the Palestinians happening right now.

We can’t turn a blind eye to the current events because of the persecution of Jews in the past. Palestinians should not have to pay the price for Nazis and others who persecuted Jews.

Completely agree with this

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 13:33

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 13:17

I think you're projecting your own anger on here.

I’m angry at the genocide being committed in Gaza, yes. I think that’s a normal human response to watching horrific suffering for over 8 months.

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 13:34

MsLuxLisbon · 23/06/2024 13:18

We can argue semantics all day, but the point is that there is only outrage when it is Israel who is allegedly destroying part of a populace. Where is the rage at the Houthi and at Iran? Pro Hamas people on these chants are happy to overlook their appalling misogyny in the name of a so called 'Free Palestine'.

It’s quite telling that you used ‘allegedly’ there. Calling protesters of a genocide ‘pro Hamas’ is also a bit misleading.

DownNative · 23/06/2024 13:35

Newgreendress · 23/06/2024 12:27

Semitic people - Wikipedia
Semitic people or Semites is an obsolete term for an ethnic, cultural or racial group[2][3][4][5] associated with people of the Middle East, including Arabs, Jews, Akkadians, and Phoenicians.
But of course, Israel made it about Jews only.
However, Israel (not all Jews, I know many Jews condemns genocide in Gaza) definitely is getting away with genocide of Palestinian people.

The key word in what you quoted from Wikipedia is obsolete.

  • *Meaning:

"no longer produced or used; out of date."

And:

"no longer used or needed, usually because something newer and better has replaced it."

It's current definitions and practice that matters. Not old, out of date, no longer used definitions of words! 🤦‍♂️

Antisemitism refers to discriminatory and racist behaviour directed towards Jewish people.

The equivalent term used to describe the same kind of behaviour directed at Arabs is Islamophobia.

Your attempts to equate the above to Russians and Slavs doesn't work. 🤷‍♂️

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 13:47

@MoMo999

On that point, whilst the Israeli government should be referred to as such - is there a member of it who is not Jewish?

Just checked and the answer to your question is yes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

ticketstickets · 23/06/2024 13:49

Murica · 23/06/2024 02:21

YANBU, OP.

I grew up outside of New York City. The only place in the world with a larger population of Jewish people is Israel. So I wondered how many Jewish people live in Ireland? Google says about 2,500. I suppose if you don't know any Jewish people it's easy to other them. If they're your friends and neighbors and coworkers and husbands and wives, you'll feel sympathetic and and protective.

The YABU people seem to be hand waving the antisemitism in the past away because they believe this time the Jews deserve it.

Name changed for this.

You are correct. I live in Ireland and I am Jewish. And have been the target of antisemitism from extremely ignorant people on social media. The non Jewish people I know IRL are lovely and friendly, maybe because they live in a Jewish area (as much as there is one in Ireland, :) it's not like Golders Green Road) and associate with Jewish people.

FindThatThing · 23/06/2024 13:49

Bowib · 23/06/2024 13:29

You want the antisemitism narrative to be allowed? Those deleted posts were awful. Scary that you’re so pro hateful narratives.

What are on about?
I agreed only that people aren’t allowed to talk about the horrors israel is commiting on the Palestinians.

’pro hateful’? Lol.
You need to stop making stupid shit up.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 13:49

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 13:33

I’m angry at the genocide being committed in Gaza, yes. I think that’s a normal human response to watching horrific suffering for over 8 months.

That's great, feel free to take it to the zillion threads about it then, and not the one that's not about it.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2024 13:49

Antisemitism is in the name - anti Semitic people, who not only Jews.
Just because someone has decide to make it about Jews, doesn't mean it is a correct definition

Strictly speaking "semite" does (edited to add "or did") include more than jews, but the use of terms evolves and it's not so much "making it about jews" as that this is what it's generally accepted to have come to mean

Except of course - unlike practically every other minority - folk think it's appropriate to instruct jews in what's discrimination and what's not

Another thing which should be surprising but really isn't ...

Bowib · 23/06/2024 13:51

FindThatThing · 23/06/2024 13:49

What are on about?
I agreed only that people aren’t allowed to talk about the horrors israel is commiting on the Palestinians.

’pro hateful’? Lol.
You need to stop making stupid shit up.

So what part of the deleted posts weren’t hateful? You’re the one making stupid shit up, pretending that the deleted comments weren’t hateful as fuck.

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 13:51

MyrrAgain · 23/06/2024 10:38

Congratulations on supporting the hamas ministry of (mis)information. 🤡

I am not fan of the man or the radio station but James O'Brien on LBC did a very good show where he explained that actually Gaza Ministry of Justice and Health etc. figures are verified by an independent NGO. That Gazan ministries, unlike in other war zones go down the route of naming those killed and providing their ID records. He also noted that historically their figures have proved pretty accurate.

Conversely, he said Israeli figures are not verified and that certain of their claims have been proven false in the past. He stated the only plausible reason for banning journalists in Gaza is because it would expose the reality of what Israel is doing - it is hard to disagree with him on this point.

If some of the very long posts on here supporting atrocities when committed by Israel are designed to try and "educate or sway" the narrative, they don't. The reality is plain to see, as is the bias trying to provide cover for it.

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 13:53

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 11:59

It’s very easy to find much more unbiased sources than yours explaining the horrific history of Israel’s creation. It’s very tedious to see so many people try to excuse this history, and very offensive to suggest that it’s antisemitic to point it out.

I agree with your posts and those of @Meraas

TorturedPoetsDepartmentAnthology · 23/06/2024 13:54

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 13:33

I’m angry at the genocide being committed in Gaza, yes. I think that’s a normal human response to watching horrific suffering for over 8 months.

Do you project anger all the time over it? It’s possible to care about multiple causes, some are less important and wide scale than others.

Coming on a thread about antisemitism and talking about the plight of Palestine is one thing. However, it’s purposeful derailing.
Yes, the actions of the Israeli government are wrong and they should be stopped. This has to end. You’re equating this with antisemitism.
British (and other nationalities) Jews are not responsible for the actions of the Israeli government.
The antisemitism we experience is NOT excusable. Obviously verbal and physical abuse is not on the same level as what is being experienced in Palestine but we are not comparing.
Ask yourself why you need to constantly bring it up on these threads.

Newgreendress · 23/06/2024 13:55

DownNative · 23/06/2024 13:26

That makes very little sense! 👇

"Present-day Slavs are classified into three groups: the West Slavs (chiefly Czechs, Kashubians, Poles, Slovaks, Silesians and Sorbs); the East Slavs (chiefly Belarusians, Russians, Rusyns, and Ukrainians); the South Slavs (chiefly Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Gorani, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs, and Slovenes)."

You might have had an argument if Slav only meant Russians, but it really doesn't so you don't!

Antisemitism, on the other hand, does refer to Jewish people.

Semites include Arabs too, you are only proving my point

AmadeustheAlpaca · 23/06/2024 13:55

All these endless pro Palestinian marches in Britain, do they really think they will achieve anything? Will Netanyahu think while he's having his breakfast one morning "I must stop attacks on Gaza because some randoms in Glasgow are saying I should'. It's great that we are a democracy and have the freedom to do this but the hassle and disruption caused by marches plus the threatening behaviour of some marchers does not endear them to many. Why no marches against Russia or China?
So many pro Palestinian posts on Mumsnet sound as if they are generated by trolls and AI. The same words are used repeatedly, children, women, genocide, Islamophobia.
It's like an AI mantra.

LovedmyRaleighChopper · 23/06/2024 13:56

Totally agree with you. Antisemitism is thriving under the cover of “Zionism”. As a Welsh non practicing Christian I have never and will never understand it. Jews have always struck me as a group as mainly hardworking and principled people who prize education and a peaceful ordered society, what’s to hate? I put some of it down to envy, as a group they seem to tend to financial success but a lot of the virulent hate totally bewilders me. As for the people who spout all the nonsense about the Jewish state taking part in a “second Holocaust”, their terminology is incredibly offensive and ignorant. I would classify most of the rabidly pro Palestinian posts on social media as almost laughably badly informed and partisan which is what will happen if you take all your knowledge of the world from social media. When you see “queers for Palestine” you just have to laugh don’t you? Fools have been amusing the crowds for thousands of years. It’s just beyond parody!

FactsNotFictionOnly · 23/06/2024 13:57

Martymcfly24 · 23/06/2024 12:58

Hamas commited the atrocities not all Palestinians.

Where did I say all Palestinians committed atrocities?

Are you saying Hamas are not Palestinians? Who are they then?

Do you deny that Palestinian civilians took part in the atrocities and hostage taking (despite clear video evidence) and also that hostages were held by civilians?

OP posts:
AyrshireTryer · 23/06/2024 13:57

brace, Brace, BRACE

TorturedPoetsDepartmentAnthology · 23/06/2024 13:57

AmadeustheAlpaca · 23/06/2024 13:55

All these endless pro Palestinian marches in Britain, do they really think they will achieve anything? Will Netanyahu think while he's having his breakfast one morning "I must stop attacks on Gaza because some randoms in Glasgow are saying I should'. It's great that we are a democracy and have the freedom to do this but the hassle and disruption caused by marches plus the threatening behaviour of some marchers does not endear them to many. Why no marches against Russia or China?
So many pro Palestinian posts on Mumsnet sound as if they are generated by trolls and AI. The same words are used repeatedly, children, women, genocide, Islamophobia.
It's like an AI mantra.

There was a protest in Zara in Westfield a while ago. All I could think of was the poor low earning retail workers having to put up with that and it made no meaningful impact. It wasted police resources too. It did put people off staying in Westfield and spending money in other shops, which is hardly a positive!

They’d be better off writing to their MP but there’s less opportunity to virtue signal that way.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2024 13:59

I am not fan of the man or the radio station but James O'Brien on LBC did a very good show where he explained that actually Gaza Mlet inistry of Justice and Health etc. figures are verified by an independent NGO

Out of interest, who were this "independent NGO" @CaliMZ?

I can't comment on specifics without knowing, but IME it would be unusual to find a genuinely independent one - and then there's the question of whether either of the parties involved would let them anywhere near what numbers exist if they really were independent

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 13:59

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 13:30

@CaliMZ
Where is the lack of condemnation? I find such claims astonishing.

As someone concerned about VAWG I noticed the silence from UK and other women's rights groups at the time. Your post made me decide to check I wasn't misremembering and I found this article below. Haven't read it all and it seems focused mostly (the article) on leftwing politics, but it mentions what I'm talking about. The lack of condemnation from women's rights groups shocked me and that's what made me, someone who isn't Jewish and until 7th October quite naive about antisemitism, open my eyes to it.

Not a single UK charity that purports to protect women from violence condemned Hamas’s brutality — except Jewish Women’s Aid.

It took UN Women 50 days even to acknowledge that these sexual assaults had happened.

https://unherd.com/2024/05/why-the-left-failed-on-october-7/

The UN Women's Group did not say anything initially because there was no evidence of it and certain claims at the outset, such as numerous beheaded babies, turned out to be false. They did then express condemnation when they felt in a position to - I also refer to my post on James O'Brien of LBC talking about the veracity of claims and data backing these on both sides.

DownNative · 23/06/2024 14:00

Newgreendress · 23/06/2024 13:55

Semites include Arabs too, you are only proving my point

On the contrary, I undermined YOUR "point" since you blatantly ignored the key word in the bit you chose to quote! 👇

OBSOLETE.

  • *The term Antisemitism does not include Arabs.

Next time you attempt to quote something, note the key words instead of trying to change the meaning of paragraphs. 🤷‍♂️

Vittuunterroristit · 23/06/2024 14:01

MoMo999 · 23/06/2024 13:19

No freedom of speech has no consequences. That is the point of free speech. To suggest there is no freedom after the speech, is very North Korea.

Hate speech which leads to violence is illegal. That is different. The fact that some don't like legitimate criticism of Israel, does not make it anti-semitic.

Also the baffling mental gymnastics of those who say if talking about anti-semitism, you cannot mention Israel, appears to twist and turn and fall down rabbit holes that many cannot follow. It is Israel who unusually entwines, race, religion and nationality. On that point, whilst the Israeli government should be referred to as such - is there a member of it who is not Jewish? No wonder sometimes people inadvertently switch terms when it is clear what they are trying to actually say.

Finally, if you can't see why it would be a problem for Israel to launch nuclear missiles, being that it is its immediate neighbours that it is fighting with, then the lack of logic is on display for all to see. It is utterly unhinged to be threatening to use nuclear weapons and I doubt Iran which has its own, finds bluster intimidating.

I doubt any of the Hamas leadership aren't Muslim. Would you be fine with people referring to Hamas as "the Muslim government"?

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 14:04

MsLuxLisbon · 23/06/2024 12:07

YANBU and I am shocked that the poll is so close. I especially dislike the 'from the rivers to the sea' chant, it is hateful. I am sorry for the people of Gaza, but their suffering is at least as much at the hands of Hamas as it is of Israel. I'm not condoning Israel's actions, but I do think that a lot of anti-Zionism has a lot of ugly anti Jewish feeling at its root.

Well the Metropolitan Police said at the outset, it is not illegal to make this chant on a protest. I have no doubt that is because the Israeli government, past and present use the phrase in relation to where Israeli sovereignty should be.

Newgreendress · 23/06/2024 14:04

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 13:29

Changing the meaning of a word is definitely arrogant. It's not critical thinking, it's incorrect thinking.

I agree with you - changing/narrowing the meaning of word 'Semites' to mean only 'Jews', is definitely arrogant

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