To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Stop trying to redefine anti-Semitism.

You’re embarrassing yourself.

You can’t colonise someone else’s land then get angry when people don’t like it. People want Palestine to be free, which it can’t be while it’s being colonised and genocided by Israel.

No, just correcting it

Mate, you made a mistake. It’s not everyone else who is wrong, it’s you.

Anti-Russian means anti-Slavonic from now on.

and it’s very offensive to purposefully derail a thread about antisemitism but here we are.

Of course I do. Non European jews are aren't referred to as colonisers.

They’re 100% aware of how many children are in the refugee camps they’re bombing. They’ve left premature babies to literally rot in hospitals after saying they’d take care of them when they evacuated said hospitals. They’ve arrested children, then tortured and sexually abused them. They’ve blockaded aid going into Gaza, or spoiled the food so starving children can’t eat it. How can you excuse any of this?

Genocide is ‘the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part.’ That is what Israel is doing to Gaza. They’ve admitted this. Experts on genocide have called this what it is, a genocide.

Firstly, the idea that Jewish people "get kicked out every country" reflects very, very badly on those places.

Not the Jewish people en masse.

Secondly, you said, "The British gave Jews Israel to establish a jewish state which has caused a significant upheaval for Palestinians."

This is ahistorical as it was the United Nations as a COLLECTIVE who decided to partition Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State respectively. Unfortunately for everyone, Arab leaders rejected the UN Partition Plan which would've saved a lot of bother for all involved.

Palestinian Authority President Abbas admitted as late as 2011 that the Arab leaders were WRONG to have rejected that plan.

To further compound the problem, five Arab States decided to invade the new State of Israel. The Arab army was much bigger than the Israeli army which was significantly smaller and badly organised. The Israelis proved adept at quickly increasing their military numbers AND their organisational abilities. The numerically superior armies of Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon were too slow to become better organised.

End result, Israel won the 1948 war the five Arab armies provoked unnecessarily. For decades afterwards, Arab leaders continued to believe they could defeat Israel militarily. Eventually, they had to accept defeat and Israel pursued land for peace deals which succeeded.

Thirdly, you also say that "Whilst, European jews have some genetic ties to the Middle East they also have genetic ties to Europe and have not lived in that region for several generations."

But a majority of Israelis have MENA ancestry rather than European.

Thdn you add that "they are seen as white colonisers displacing people native to the land."

That kind of framing is not only inaccurate, but wrong. Israelis ARE indigenous to the MENA region and Israel itself is not a colonial State. Indeed, colonialism was theorised in order to explain the behaviour of European States such as France, Spain, Portugal, United Kingdom (both versions), etc.

But colonialism doesn't fit the modern State of Israel. The Time article I linked to previously explains this well enough.

No, the problem with respect to Israelis, Gazans and the West Bank is best understood and explained as indigenous peoples to the region having incompatible & irreconcilable views on how they plus the region was to be governed.

Ethno-nationalism with a religious element explains the problem much better than colonialism ever will. Anyone who also thinks "If we take religion out of the problem, it'll be sorted!" doesn't actually understand the underlying dynamics involved.

Finally, you say that "A lot the recent anti-semitism is tied the current affairs."

Again, no, the data doesn't reflect that as antisemitism had been increasing significantly BEFORE 7th October 2023. So, current affairs doesn't explain that in a satisfactory way.

I’m not derailing anything. I replied to one comment and apparently angered a bunch of zionists who keep coming back with the silliest, most ignorant ‘arguments’ I’ve ever seen.

I’m not Zionist. I am calling out people who are purposefully trying to equate Zionism with antisemitism - people like you.

I think you're projecting your own anger on here.

Quite arrogant to think you are the person with the correct definition of a word rather than everyone else, don't you think?

We can argue semantics all day, but the point is that there is only outrage when it is Israel who is allegedly destroying part of a populace. Where is the rage at the Houthi and at Iran? Pro Hamas people on these chants are happy to overlook their appalling misogyny in the name of a so called 'Free Palestine'.

Yep.
Only certain narrative is allowed.

Scary when you think about it.

No freedom of speech has no consequences. That is the point of free speech. To suggest there is no freedom after the speech, is very North Korea.

Hate speech which leads to violence is illegal. That is different. The fact that some don't like legitimate criticism of Israel, does not make it anti-semitic.

Also the baffling mental gymnastics of those who say if talking about anti-semitism, you cannot mention Israel, appears to twist and turn and fall down rabbit holes that many cannot follow. It is Israel who unusually entwines, race, religion and nationality. On that point, whilst the Israeli government should be referred to as such - is there a member of it who is not Jewish? No wonder sometimes people inadvertently switch terms when it is clear what they are trying to actually say.

Finally, if you can't see why it would be a problem for Israel to launch nuclear missiles, being that it is its immediate neighbours that it is fighting with, then the lack of logic is on display for all to see. It is utterly unhinged to be threatening to use nuclear weapons and I doubt Iran which has its own, finds bluster intimidating.

This is quite clearly NOT the case on Mumsnet.

That poster breached Talk Guidelines which you can check out to understand why that person's post was deleted by MN Team.

Perception is not the same thing as reality. 🤦‍♂️

Just because some people can't apply critical thinking to the definitions someone has decided to force onto them, doesn't mean other people, who do, are arrogant. BTW, people who condemn Russia for war in Ukraine, are Anti-Slavonic

That makes very little sense! 👇

"Present-day Slavs are classified into three groups: the West Slavs (chiefly Czechs, Kashubians, Poles, Slovaks, Silesians and Sorbs); the East Slavs (chiefly Belarusians, Russians, Rusyns, and Ukrainians); the South Slavs (chiefly Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Gorani, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs, and Slovenes)."

You might have had an argument if Slav only meant Russians, but it really doesn't so you don't!

Antisemitism, on the other hand, does refer to Jewish people.

You want the antisemitism narrative to be allowed? Those deleted posts were awful. Scary that you’re so pro hateful narratives.

Changing the meaning of a word is definitely arrogant. It's not critical thinking, it's incorrect thinking.

@CaliMZ
Where is the lack of condemnation? I find such claims astonishing.

As someone concerned about VAWG I noticed the silence from UK and other women's rights groups at the time. Your post made me decide to check I wasn't misremembering and I found this article below. Haven't read it all and it seems focused mostly (the article) on leftwing politics, but it mentions what I'm talking about. The lack of condemnation from women's rights groups shocked me and that's what made me, someone who isn't Jewish and until 7th October quite naive about antisemitism, open my eyes to it.

Not a single UK charity that purports to protect women from violence condemned Hamas’s brutality — except Jewish Women’s Aid.

It took UN Women 50 days even to acknowledge that these sexual assaults had happened.

https://unherd.com/2024/05/why-the-left-failed-on-october-7/

I’m not doing that at all.