To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

What an absolutely fuckwitted thing to say. Israel made antisemitism all about the Jews?

After the Holocaust?

You’ve heard of the Final Solution to the Jewish Question, yes?

What do you mean?

Hold your horses, the fuckwitted thing is to say condemning Israel for genocide of Palestinian people in Gaza, is antisemitic

Edited for typos

No Western government is providing China with the means to terrorise its own people.. The US provides $3 billion a year to Israel and has added more on top of that since 7 Oct supporting its invasion of Gaza. Therefore, it does attract more media attention and is more in people's conciousness. It is also not the case that you have to know about and condemn all wrongs in order to condemn some wrongs. We don't say to people fighting to save the Amazon rainforest, why don't you campaign about all trees - you should have help the police investigate the Sycamore Gap if you want to be taken seriously. These logical fallacies are reductive imo

Apologies, I should have said extremists aside, no one wants to get rid of Jews. People tend to be chanting ‘free Palestine’, in London, as it’s currently undergoing a genocide commited by Israel.

I think much of the jewish identity, culture and persecution is tied being stateless people, unwanted people and getting kicked out.

That privilege, freedom of speech has consequences as has been pointed out before.

In the UK there are those watching people march every week through London who have or are are considering exercising their right of return and are more than willing to defend Israel at any cost. This is happening in other Countries too.

I do find it very strange that people are so concerned about the West provoking conflict with Middle Eastern countries because of the terrorist reprisals, but seem ready and willing to provoke a nation has 90 nuclear warheads and no reason not to use them should it get backed into a corner.

I didn’t say anything about that.

You claimed antisemitism was about Semites and that Israel made it about Jews.

But antisemitism is specifically hatred of Jews and has existed as a type of racism long before Israel was created.

It is a genocide, though. They’re currently bombing a refugee camp, and have killed more children than in any ‘conflict’ in history. Israeli leaders have openly admitted to wanting to wipe Gaza out.

What else would you call this?

Well, in that case they should use the 'anti-Israel', or ant-Jews, not anti Semitic

The only genocide was that on Oct 7th by Palestinians against Israelis.

There is no genocide in Gaza.

Denying that and falling for Iranian propaganda, compounded by the UN and local NGO corruption, is certainly antisemitic.

Oh, no one wants to get rid of Jews except the people who want to get rid of Jews, who you forgot about.

Glad to have cleared that up.

People tend to be chanting ‘From the river to the sea’ in London which is about getting rid of the world’s only Jewish state, so that’s not great either.

Who is “they”?

If you don’t know what antisemitism means, look it up in a dictionary. Don’t blame people using it correctly for your error.

No Western government is providing China with the means to terrorise its own people.. The US provides $3 billion a year to Israel

Yes, and in 2022 the US gave $3.11 billion to China: https://www.sais-cari.org/data-chinese-global-foreign-aid#:~:text=Foreign%20aid%20data%20overview&text=However%2C%20foreign%20aid%20expenditures%20dropped,US%243.11%20billion%20in%202022.

I realise of course that this probably wasn't to enable attacks on the Uyghurs, but does anyone seriously suppose that such a regime wouldn't spend it on exactly what they choose?

Then there's the same regime's attempts to colonise many African nations - something roundly condemned where the west is concerned, but attracts very little comment
I'd say this seemed strange, but actually it's not strange at all when we see folk being so very selective with their victim narratives

Typo

Do you know that Israel isn’t just “European Jews”?

Great, let's not make comparisons.

Now, any comment on the historic and current issue of anti-Semitism? Any suggestions of how we can prevent or even fight it?

I've posted this a few times before, but think it is relevant:

Zionism is literally the belief that there should be a homeland for the Jewish people in our ancestral land of Israel. That’s not at the exclusion of other people living there too.

For religious Jews, Zionism has a meaning separate from political Zionism - it refers to our eternal longing for our return to our homeland, the coming of the messiah and to rebuild the third temple. It’s central to our belief system, we pray towards Jerusalem three times a day, and our longing to return to Zion (another name for Jerusalem) is referred to in our daily prayers and blessings over and over again, prayers said by generations of Jews, (for about 2500 years ) - since the destruction of the second temple.

Political Zionism is a secular construct. To be a religious Jew is to be inextricably a Zionist in some form, regardless of opinions on the political structures/ Israeli government/ state of Israel.

Criticism of the actions of the state of Israel does not equal anti-zionism or anti-semitism. As above, the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Israel (i.e. the core zionistic belief) does not mean it should be at the exclusion of other people peacefully co-existing in Israel. Valid criticisms can be made of the way Arabs and Jews are currently integrated within the State of Israel, and in fact, the state must and should be open to hearing and addressing criticism. Similarly, criticising how the war is conducted, is not anti-zionism or anti-semitic. Where the lines are blurred, however, is calling for an end to the State of Israel, holding all Jews worldwide accountable for the actions of the Israeli government, holocaust inversion, and the use of certain very specific anti-semitic tropes when criticising the state of Israel.

Chief Rabbi Jonathon Sacks explained antisemitism as a mutating virus. https://rabbisacks.org/videos/the-mutation-of-antisemitism/. Antisemitism takes on the form of whatever is currently most despised in society.

The White Colonial Settler narrative as an explanation for anti-zionism (and thus a reason for wanting to 'end the Zionist Colonial Project') is an example of this: It is an illogical argument; Jews were persecuted in the Holocaust in part for not being 'white'. The majority of Jews in Israel are refugees from ME countries, with a smaller contingent of refugees from Ethiopia and immigrants/refugees (depending on when they arrived) from Europe. Even the European Jews do not have European DNA. The narrative does not make sense. Furthermore, colonising a country is when another country 'sends settlers to a place and establishes political control over it' (Oxford Dictionary). Jews cannot be colonisers, as a) they are indigenous to Israel, and have maintained an ongoing presence in the land for thousands of years, and b) what country are they an outpost of?

Criticising the state of Israel as a white colonial entity, therefore, would be anti-semitic, under the mask of anti-zionism.

Jews make up 0.2% of the world's population, not 1%. Our numbers have not yet recovered from the holocaust nearly 80 years ago. Although anti-semitism in some ways appeared to go underground for a while, it never completely disappeared, even in the immediate aftermath of the holocaust. For example, the Kielce pogrom in Poland, in 1946, against survivors of the holocaust, was mere months after the holocaust. https://www.yadvashem.org/articles/general/anti-jewish-violence-in-poland-after-liberation.html

This recent rise in anti-semitism, has very real, very dangerous consequences. This 12 year old was allegedly gang raped in an anti-semitic fueled attack.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-teens-charged-over-horrific-antisemitic-rape-of-12-year-old-girl-near-paris/ "According to Le Parisien, one of the suspects was the girl’s former boyfriend, who confessed to the attack and said he had acted out of revenge after she hid her religious identity from him. French media outlets reported that investigators uncovered antisemitic content on the suspect’s phone, although that was not confirmed."
Jews will and must continue to call out anti-semitism very strongly, because we have been here before, and we know where this ends.

Why do you think more children have been killed in this conflict than any other?

Do you think Israel are deliberately targeting children?

You seem to be trying to say that anti-Semitism isn't hatred of Jews as other religions can also be Semites. Sorry if I misunderstood.

What was your point of the link then?

Genocide refers to the specific and deliberate destruction of a particular ethnicity. It does not just mean 'mass slaughter'. I am not condoning the illegal killing of civilians, but I have heard what is happening in Gaza compared to the Holocaust, which I think is anti-Jewish and also highly inaccurate.

I do not believe the op has started this thread in support of anyone

The comments are now provocative knowing what the responses will be

let’s hope it is pulled soon

Hamas commited the atrocities not all Palestinians.

'They' are everyone who uses the term, is is to hard to see?
Antisemitism is in the name - anti Semitic people, who not only Jews.
Just because someone has decide to make it about Jews, doesn't mean it is a correct definition.
It's like 'they' 😀start calling anti-Russians, anti-Slavonic

Agree.

The motivation is clear with statements like the above.

Who's "they"?

The term antisemitism to describe hatred towards Jews has been around since the 19th century. Sorry it's an inconvenience to you. The dictionary definition of antisemitism hostility towards Jewish people, which there's plenty of in this thread.

Who are you to say we need to change the historic term used to describe racism towards us?