Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 11:32

Lavenderflower · 23/06/2024 11:30

I have jewish ancestry - I think it is true that Jewish people have always been persecuted and I think anti-semitism has increased. In the same, vein, I don't condone that actions of the Israel government.

That's fine, but there's really no need to mention Israel in a thread about anti-Semitism.

Lavenderflower · 23/06/2024 11:36

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 11:32

That's fine, but there's really no need to mention Israel in a thread about anti-Semitism.

excuse me?

79Helene · 23/06/2024 11:36

yotkshiregoogle · 23/06/2024 11:25

The IDF recently tied a Palestinian man to a jeep. Absolute sickos. Stop hiding behind history.

Who are you telling to 'stop hiding'? British Jews? Who?

79Helene · 23/06/2024 11:39

79Helene · 23/06/2024 11:36

Who are you telling to 'stop hiding'? British Jews? Who?

The irony in this is that many Jews actually are hiding their ethnicity/faith. Because of the antisemitism that apparently doesn't exist, according to some posters.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 11:40

Lavenderflower · 23/06/2024 11:36

excuse me?

I'm not sure what part you didn't understand

Lavenderflower · 23/06/2024 11:41

I think part of reason why reason why the issue of European jews occupying the land relates to that fact they are perceived as white colonisers. The Jewish claim to indigeneity is highly problematic due to their the close proximity to whiteness. The Middle East is considered a white culture or nation.

Lavenderflower · 23/06/2024 11:43

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 11:40

I'm not sure what part you didn't understand

It sounds like you trying to censor me. I am entitled to views.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 11:45

Lavenderflower · 23/06/2024 11:43

It sounds like you trying to censor me. I am entitled to views.

I'm not censoring you. I'm saying that randomly mentioning Israel when talking about anti-Semitism isn't really ok. It's unnecessarily conflating the two, don't you think?

DownNative · 23/06/2024 11:46

Lavenderflower · 23/06/2024 11:43

It sounds like you trying to censor me. I am entitled to views.

Not so.

Antisemitism is NOT dependent on the existence of Israel nor is it dependent on mentioning Israel.

After all, Antisemitism existed before the modern State of Israel and it would exist after the State of Israel, logically speaking.

So, you should be able to talk about Antisemitism without mentioning Israel. Otherwise, it can be used to mask Antisemitic behaviour, views and ideology as has been observed since 7th October 2023 especially.

SlightlygrumpyBettyswaitress · 23/06/2024 11:46

I'm an atheist of jewish heritage.
When I look at my family history, it makes me shudder (and be amazed that I am here)
Looking at what is going on in the world, I often think we are about 5 mins away from disaster.

StepUpSlowly · 23/06/2024 11:47

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 11:22

@StepUpSlowly my point was just that in the years immediately following the Holocaust, the persecution of Jewish people continued. It just moved slightly further to the east where it already existed for centuries and then just got worse until the vast majority of Jewish people felt they had no options but to leave. I was merely clarifying that the "shame" didn't stop anti-Semitism from continuing even in the latter part of the 1940s. That is all.

But to be fair while horrible I wouldn’t expect antisemitism to stop with the war. Clearly you need to have a massive underlying antisemite belief system at an existing massive scale to reach the level where something like the Holocaust isn’t just a thought, but elaborated and put into action and supported by the population of several countries through collaboration (forced and not so forced).

So, of course, people who genuinely supported Hitler’s ideas didn’t just change their mind about Jews just because the war ended.

The same way the fact same-sex marriage is now legal in several countries won’t ever stop you from hearing about acts of homophobia in every single country in which it’s currently legal.

A prejudiced system being dismantled doesn’t stop the beliefs that put it into place to start with to continue to exist throughout the population. I mean extremist parties are on the rise internationally but especially in Europe. Including in a country like Germany where you would think they would maybe not want to lean towards extremism so soon after the end of WW2.

Brexit is a very good example of using Xenophobia to even manage to get a population to shoot it own self in the foot big time. People will say it was the NHS that made them vote Brexit and nothing to to do with immigration but the reality is if Brexit proposal had been we will give all the money to the NHS AND open up our doors to all migrants, there is very little chance that Brexit would have even gotten a vote. the Nazis didn’t make people antisemites (maybe the younger generations who got brainwashed) but they did get in power and as strong as they did because people didn’t have a problem with antisemitism. And that’s why, yes, it didn’t end after the war. It’s because the war was just an excuse to be able to be more openly antisemite, the same ways a lot of people in the UK feel a lot more comfortable being racist since Brexit. They felt the same way before it and would have the same belief without it, it’s just the comfort you feel about being open about it.

That’s why yes it feels like anti-semitism is on the rise. I don’t think people are turning anti-semites now. I think people who are and were before recent events now have the perfect excuse to be vocal about it under the pretense of standing up for Israel and that’s why it feels like it’s on the rise.

People who don’t have a problem with Jews, black, gay, Muslim people don’t suddenly wake up hating them. But those who already dislike them will use any excuse to jump on the bandwagon and be extremely vocal about “those people” and “their agenda”.

Sad world we live in where we focus more on the person’s background (irrelevant of which) than their humanity.

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 11:48

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 10:09

Your last sentence is vile.

By the way...what's your definition of a Zionist?

It’s the truth. Israel only exists at the expense of Palestine. My definition of a Zionist can be found in the dictionary.

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 11:48

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 10:15

So you don't think anti-Semitism, both historically and now, is worth discussing? You seem to be trying to turn the conversation away from it. Why is that?

Nothing in my comment suggested that at all.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 11:51

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 11:48

Nothing in my comment suggested that at all.

So why are you changing the conversation instead of discussing the topic at hand?

StepUpSlowly · 23/06/2024 11:52

StepUpSlowly · 23/06/2024 11:47

But to be fair while horrible I wouldn’t expect antisemitism to stop with the war. Clearly you need to have a massive underlying antisemite belief system at an existing massive scale to reach the level where something like the Holocaust isn’t just a thought, but elaborated and put into action and supported by the population of several countries through collaboration (forced and not so forced).

So, of course, people who genuinely supported Hitler’s ideas didn’t just change their mind about Jews just because the war ended.

The same way the fact same-sex marriage is now legal in several countries won’t ever stop you from hearing about acts of homophobia in every single country in which it’s currently legal.

A prejudiced system being dismantled doesn’t stop the beliefs that put it into place to start with to continue to exist throughout the population. I mean extremist parties are on the rise internationally but especially in Europe. Including in a country like Germany where you would think they would maybe not want to lean towards extremism so soon after the end of WW2.

Brexit is a very good example of using Xenophobia to even manage to get a population to shoot it own self in the foot big time. People will say it was the NHS that made them vote Brexit and nothing to to do with immigration but the reality is if Brexit proposal had been we will give all the money to the NHS AND open up our doors to all migrants, there is very little chance that Brexit would have even gotten a vote. the Nazis didn’t make people antisemites (maybe the younger generations who got brainwashed) but they did get in power and as strong as they did because people didn’t have a problem with antisemitism. And that’s why, yes, it didn’t end after the war. It’s because the war was just an excuse to be able to be more openly antisemite, the same ways a lot of people in the UK feel a lot more comfortable being racist since Brexit. They felt the same way before it and would have the same belief without it, it’s just the comfort you feel about being open about it.

That’s why yes it feels like anti-semitism is on the rise. I don’t think people are turning anti-semites now. I think people who are and were before recent events now have the perfect excuse to be vocal about it under the pretense of standing up for Israel and that’s why it feels like it’s on the rise.

People who don’t have a problem with Jews, black, gay, Muslim people don’t suddenly wake up hating them. But those who already dislike them will use any excuse to jump on the bandwagon and be extremely vocal about “those people” and “their agenda”.

Sad world we live in where we focus more on the person’s background (irrelevant of which) than their humanity.

Edited

Whoops wanted to write, in the pretense of standing up for Palestine, not Israel.

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 11:53

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 11:51

So why are you changing the conversation instead of discussing the topic at hand?

I wasn’t changing the conversation at all.

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 23/06/2024 11:55

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 11:48

It’s the truth. Israel only exists at the expense of Palestine. My definition of a Zionist can be found in the dictionary.

You are factually incorrect on many counts.

It is so tedious to find so many lies circulating on MN.

Why bother to post if you don't know the history of the MER.

https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/what-antisemitism-anti-zionism-anti-israel-bias

You are being redirected...

https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/what-antisemitism-anti-zionism-anti-israel-bias

whatdidyousaaay · 23/06/2024 11:56

I think you're being very ignorant. The acts of October 7 were met with a great deal of sympathy for Israel and Israeli people. However, when they retaliated by starting a literal genocide, committing multiple war crimes, and massacring thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians and children, people rightfully became angry. It's not anti-semetic to ask a nation's army to stop deliberately murdering children.

Towerofsong · 23/06/2024 11:57

"Oy, you Jews: Get out of Israel (the Romans)"
"Oy, you Jews: Get out of Spain"
"Oy, you Jews: Get out of the UK"
"Oy, you Jews: Get out of Russia"

Jews..."Maybe it's better if we all live together somewhere?" (resurgence of Zionism)

"Oy, you Jews: Get out of Europe" (Nazis, also supported by other fascists and the Muslim Brotherhood)

Jews: "But where can we go?"

....Various political shenanigans with the UK and the UN...

UK: "Screw this, it's too complicated and we have made ourselves unpopular with everyone, we're going home".
Jews in Israel: "Fine we will settle here, the UN have said it's fine and this is where we came from originally, and even though lots of us aren't religious any more, our entire tradition is based around our relationship with this land so it makes sense."

The Arab nations: "Oy, Jews get out of our Middle Eastern and North African countries...we are confiscating everything you own, go to Israel!"

Also the Arab nations: "Why are there Jews in the Middle East, saying they are now managing their own country... how dare they...Oy, Jews get out of Israel"

The world: "Oy, Jews, get out of Israel"

Jews: "No thanks, we're tired of this shit"

Arabs living in what was now called Israel: "Well, 1948 was an awful mess. But we don't think Israel should exist so we aren't going to talk to them. We'll use terrorism instead"

Successive Israeli governments: "Well, 1948 was an awful mess, but at least we have a country now. And the local Arab leaders don't want to talk to us anyway, so we'll just ignore the problem, because it's really complicated and we are kind of busy getting over centuries of shit, and building a country."

Arabs living in the area: "Well we will make you leave. Just watch us".

Israel: "Just you try it, we've had centuries of this and we aren't going anywhere"

The world: "Oy Jews in Israel, get out of Israel".

The world: "Oy, Jews who aren't in Israel, we blame you for Israel."

Jews: "Hey, that's antisemitism, we may love the country of Israel, but we can't vote there or change anything, don't blame us!".

The world: "Oh, don't be silly, of course we aren't antisemitic, what makes you think that? We don't hate Jews, we just hate Zionists, they are the Jews who love the country of Israel, recognise it's importance in Jewish traditions, feel connected to Israel and want a safe place to live if we hate on them too much."

Jews: "So we are only acceptable if we don't support having a safe place to live and ignore our traditions....yeah, that actually IS antisemitism!!"

Ad nauseum....

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 11:59

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 23/06/2024 11:55

You are factually incorrect on many counts.

It is so tedious to find so many lies circulating on MN.

Why bother to post if you don't know the history of the MER.

https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/what-antisemitism-anti-zionism-anti-israel-bias

It’s very easy to find much more unbiased sources than yours explaining the horrific history of Israel’s creation. It’s very tedious to see so many people try to excuse this history, and very offensive to suggest that it’s antisemitic to point it out.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 12:00

Floorbard · 23/06/2024 11:48

It’s the truth. Israel only exists at the expense of Palestine. My definition of a Zionist can be found in the dictionary.

Israel exists because of Hitler.

If anyone tries to get rid of Jews this time around the World gets levelled, so carry on peeing in the wind all you like.

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 23/06/2024 12:04

@Floorbard

Feel free to share your dictionary definition of Zionism

I suspect you can't because it would completely undermine your own arguments

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 12:04

whatdidyousaaay · 23/06/2024 11:56

I think you're being very ignorant. The acts of October 7 were met with a great deal of sympathy for Israel and Israeli people. However, when they retaliated by starting a literal genocide, committing multiple war crimes, and massacring thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians and children, people rightfully became angry. It's not anti-semetic to ask a nation's army to stop deliberately murdering children.

Firstly, it's not a "literal" genocide.

Secondly, do you not remember the mass celebrations on October 7th and 8th? Because I do. I remember my children's school increasing security from the Monday onwards.

Thirdly, do you know what is anti-Semitic? Not being able to discuss anti-Semitism without forcing the conversation to be about Israel instead.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 23/06/2024 12:05

How does anyone not know about the persistent scapegoating of Jews through history? Its in Shakespeare FFS!

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 23/06/2024 12:06

Towerofsong · 23/06/2024 11:57

"Oy, you Jews: Get out of Israel (the Romans)"
"Oy, you Jews: Get out of Spain"
"Oy, you Jews: Get out of the UK"
"Oy, you Jews: Get out of Russia"

Jews..."Maybe it's better if we all live together somewhere?" (resurgence of Zionism)

"Oy, you Jews: Get out of Europe" (Nazis, also supported by other fascists and the Muslim Brotherhood)

Jews: "But where can we go?"

....Various political shenanigans with the UK and the UN...

UK: "Screw this, it's too complicated and we have made ourselves unpopular with everyone, we're going home".
Jews in Israel: "Fine we will settle here, the UN have said it's fine and this is where we came from originally, and even though lots of us aren't religious any more, our entire tradition is based around our relationship with this land so it makes sense."

The Arab nations: "Oy, Jews get out of our Middle Eastern and North African countries...we are confiscating everything you own, go to Israel!"

Also the Arab nations: "Why are there Jews in the Middle East, saying they are now managing their own country... how dare they...Oy, Jews get out of Israel"

The world: "Oy, Jews, get out of Israel"

Jews: "No thanks, we're tired of this shit"

Arabs living in what was now called Israel: "Well, 1948 was an awful mess. But we don't think Israel should exist so we aren't going to talk to them. We'll use terrorism instead"

Successive Israeli governments: "Well, 1948 was an awful mess, but at least we have a country now. And the local Arab leaders don't want to talk to us anyway, so we'll just ignore the problem, because it's really complicated and we are kind of busy getting over centuries of shit, and building a country."

Arabs living in the area: "Well we will make you leave. Just watch us".

Israel: "Just you try it, we've had centuries of this and we aren't going anywhere"

The world: "Oy Jews in Israel, get out of Israel".

The world: "Oy, Jews who aren't in Israel, we blame you for Israel."

Jews: "Hey, that's antisemitism, we may love the country of Israel, but we can't vote there or change anything, don't blame us!".

The world: "Oh, don't be silly, of course we aren't antisemitic, what makes you think that? We don't hate Jews, we just hate Zionists, they are the Jews who love the country of Israel, recognise it's importance in Jewish traditions, feel connected to Israel and want a safe place to live if we hate on them too much."

Jews: "So we are only acceptable if we don't support having a safe place to live and ignore our traditions....yeah, that actually IS antisemitism!!"

Ad nauseum....

This explains it well.

The Holocaust inversion on this thread is abhorrent.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.