To think that the majority of trans people are neurodivergent

[SlipperSliders]

...and I sort of think it's a form of neurodivergence in itself.

By the way I'm trans affirmative.

I don't think I've met a trans person who I thought was neurotypical.

I heard a quote today, there are as many reasons for being trans as there are trans people.

So there is many reasons that people are uncomfortable about their born selves.

The answer is to address why society is suddenly saying you can be the opposite sex, no sex, or some other thing.

there are only two sexes for good reason, the propagation of the human race.

There are also natural gay people. There is no link to being gay and being ND.

Sex is a fact, gender none conformity is fine, saying you are a woman or a man when you are not is just illogical.

And it is causing a shed load of problems for women's rights and Gay peoples rights.

Trans ideology is a manifestation of a broken society where children fear being sexed adults.

100% relate to this. Thank you @GruffalosGirl

Is gender identity the same as sexual attraction?
If they are related, aren't you worried that young gay and lesbian people are transitioning to avoid homophobia? Why are so many gay and lesbian people actively against trans ideology?

If they aren't, why are they lumped together?

It doesn’t. You can be offended. Doesn’t mean anyone gets to censor it.

I don’t use the word. I don’t like it. But my opinion does not trump someone else who chooses to use it. I can voice my opinion, I’m certainly not reporting it to mumsnet and calling it homophobic!

The same argument can be used for some racial slurs. Some people still find them offensive but the majority have reclaimed certain words. I'd argue that all these previously offensive terms be binned but it's not me reclaiming them.

It's trendy, so people who are easily influenced and get swept up in trends will believe themselves to be trans. They'd be emos in an earlier generation.

Honestly it all sounds like a huge clusterfuck 🤣 who decided ok yes let's go with that word and everyone said yeah let's do it - I'm going to start calling myself that too 🤣 it's honestly crazy to me. It's akin to the word 'spastic' that was a genuine word, mostly used as a terrible insult in the 90s and then phased out rightly so.

How… how do you think development in utero actually works?

It’s this kind of wildly inaccurate thinking that fills up TikTok and makes isolated, vulnerable and different-feeling kids like they’ve found the truth about themselves, because this is sCieNTifiC fAcTs so great, they can fling themselves into it no matter the physical and psychological cost to themselves long-term.

We need to reassure all traumatised and/or ND kids that they can fancy who they want, play with the toys they want, dress the way they want and NONE of their bodies are “wrong”. What an absolutely monstrous thing to teach children is a “fact”.

Oh sorry, I think I worded that in a confusing way. I think they are different but I think the way they intersect now makes categorising people neatly into straight, gay, bi complicated, so it's easier to say "queer". For example, someone might be non-binary and only be attracted to female gendered people of either sex. They're not gay or bi, because they themselves don't think of themselves as male or female. But probably that's too specific to tell someone casually, and over the top, so if the topic comes up they might say they're "queer".

@verygrumpy I absolutely know and accept the majority of not all of ND people have experienced many many difficulties, prejudice and indeed trauma. The cessation of using 'disorder' is by no means meant to deny that. Rather the thinking by the many autistic people who take offense at this description is the idea that they are ' disordered' or that autism is something to treat , ( which it very clearly isnt, although obviously some conditions that may coexist can be) rather than simply a different way of being. ( I'm just trying to adopt the language of a movement of autistic people ) Someone likened this to me as the difference say, between android and apple being different operating systems.
If this argument is followed the suggestion would be that the problems that you and your family experienced did not lie with you, rather the world around you.

It’s still an all out insult. Some have tried to reclaim it in recent years, but they haven’t a clue what they are talking about. It’s a disgusting slur and I find it horribly offensive and upsetting

This 100%. Campaigning women have always been looking out for vulnerable women and children, and been told again and again it’s just ignorant bigotry.

It’s hateful that now the data is growing to undeniable levels of clarity in showing how much harm society has put those vulnerable groups in and those GC women were right all along, it’s suddenly “both sides were as bad, they just both wanted to argue and no one cared about the children”. Bullshit. That’s WHY women fought all these battles and fought for good research and data, while TRAs were putting on balaclavas and attacking open debates and fucking off safeguarding entirely in the name of rainbow wonderfulness.

That selective memory-holing can all get in the bin, thanks.

Achingly ridiculous nonsense. There is no ‘male brain’ outside of a male body. There is no ‘male
brain’ that also controls menstruation, pregnancy and menopause.

Women can be more ‘masculine’. But that has precisely nothing to do with their sex. There is no one way to be a woman.

The only pre-requisite is being conceived female.

@SlipperSliders There's a whole heap of ND people who are gender critical. Myself included. Just because I'm articulate and can hold down a job doesn't mean all ND people are. Some of my reasons are the sheer amount of ND girls who've gone through the Tavistock clinic, and that vulnerable women and girls should have the right to single sex care.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/severely-learning-disabled-girl-sex-based-rights-under-threat/

As an aside, I hate the word 'queer'. I'm bisexual, nothing more, nothing less.

By ‘anti trans’ you mean pro women and girls?

It’s those ‘anti trans’ women who are fighting hardest to save ‘trans’ kids from mutilation and sterilisation. While ghouls prey on their for cannon fodder.

Well a black person can reclaim the n word even though historically it’s been used as a violent racist insult so queer people can reclaim the queer slur.
its up to the individual if they want to call themselves that, I wouldn’t call anyone else queer. So if you’re offended and traumatised by how I ID that’s a choice you make.

I don't think queer was even in our consciousness really.

I went to school in the 90s too. You were unaware, obviously. Not everyone was. Did you ever watch "Queer As Folk"? Calling things "gay" at school back in the day is a different type of usage to what posters are talking about with "queer". My brother called my pencil case "gay" once. It's stupid and puerile and not nice but he wasn't engaging with the inherent homophobia, he just didn't like my pencil case. It's similar to the difference between misogyny where you utterly hate women and casual misogyny where you make lame jokes that women can't drive. Queer" was what we would now term "hate speech", what people called gay men when they thought they were fair game to beat up, verbally abuse or discriminate against.

oh for sure there are those who believe that they are trans who are not in any way militant. But no-one is born in the wrong body, it is not a benign belief system, and no matter how pleasant or vulnerable some of gender ideology's adherents, it still isn't true. we shouldn't feel compelled to deny reality for the benefit of the nicer people. sorry I'm not feeling very articulate- I just feel it's the final hurdle back to reality- we need to accept that none of trans is true or real. no-one knows any trans people because it's a nonsense- we know men and we know women.

Can I just throw in a point I haven't seen mentioned here. In a neurotype that typically struggles with change, is there no insight into how hormones/periods/bodily changes during puberty impact the prevelance of those beginning to explore whether they are trans? I know many ND individuals who have struggled with changes during puberty...

@hyuok there is very little evidence for a 'male' or 'female' brain - differences between individuals of a gender are greater than between the genders. See Gina Rippon (academic)'s book for a summary of the scientific literature.

Have you heard of 'autigender'? That's what makes the most sense to my autistic teen, they are not specifically traditional male or female, but present as autistic first then some gender features.

One aspect for some autistic people (as a PP mentioned) was the different way they feel sensations - inside and outside the body. So proprioception (where my body is in space) is perceived differently (as far as anyone can measure), and other senses are affected. I can believe that this leads to a combination of misapprehension and worry about different bodily sensations. Combine this with (still) lots of stereotyped views of what is male or female could lead people to think their bodies are 'wrong', whereas as many PPs have mentioned there are many other explanations.

The same argument can be used for some racial slurs. Some people still find them offensive but the majority have reclaimed certain words.

Can we all use them then? Even people who they don't actually apply to and have never had them used as a vicious slur against them?

Absolutely. I would argue that, struggling with change being such a common component of ASD, that what might be termed puberty distress could basically be considered a normal developmental phase amongst the neurodiverse. I really remember how distressing it was to go through those changes.

Sorry, hyuok was a troll - I’ve zapped their posts so there are some holes in the thread…

@nocoolnamesleft thanks for understanding my point.
I should mention that I don't think ND people are more easily swayed into something not right for them because of the difficulty with changes during puberty, but also it is pertinent to mention that hyperfocus and research underpins a lot of the decisions some of us make. ....

Not one of the people saying yay I use queer about myself on this thread is actually a gay man, I don't think. They are the only people who can "reclaim". Everyone else is appropriating.