To think that the majority of trans people are neurodivergent

[SlipperSliders]

...and I sort of think it's a form of neurodivergence in itself.

By the way I'm trans affirmative.

I don't think I've met a trans person who I thought was neurotypical.

@hyuok in that situation, I would be exactly the same person, but I would be male. If I'd been born male, I would be the same person but with a different history and very different experiences.

We do know of course that growing up is a highly gendered experience, that people behave differently towards even foetuses and babies depending on their sex. Sex matters much less in developed societies than it ever did before in human history, but it always does matter in some circumstances. To say that anyone's body is 'wrong' seems so regressive to me. We're born in our own bodies, we are our bodies.

I'm not an expert in this field so take the following with a pinch of salt, but isn't this plurality of potential causes the case for many mental disorders? For example, anorexia sufferers also are disproportionately survivors of abuse, but equally, some anorexia sufferers end up anorexic because of other causes. It seems to me there are different and multiple explanations for why someone might end up with gender dysphoria. I guess the question is, are any of these explanations reasons to be cautious , or conversely are any reasons to be extra affirmative?

I completely agree with you, though, in that there is a lot to research and it's too simplistic to treat as one group.

What's the point of this thought experiment though since it can't correspond to any reality?

Indeed, it is theoretical. It is so theoretical that it has no relevance to gender dysphoria or trans identification.

No-one trans-identifying has suddenly woken up with unexpected body parts, so speculation about how you might feel if you had woken up with unexpected body parts has no relevance to people who are distressed about the body parts they have always had.

That's interesting. I know 3 girls and 1 boy who identify as trans. They are all ND. And the boy I would describe as having a more female presentation of ASD.

@AgathaAllAlong but some of them will be boys who fancy having breasts and using the girls' changing room. They don't have GD.

Err, no. It's a reclaimed word and although some older gay people find it offensive, younger people use it to describe unconventional gender or sexual identities.

Just to stress

Why is the lived experience of certain groups valid, but the lived experience of other groups invalid?

The common theme tends to be age.

God, that's sad.

Queer is back and people are proudly identifying themselves using it @Hinkuy .

See my abuse point.

It's not reclaimed if it still causes significant offence to particular groups.

To be reclaimed there would be no controversy over it's meaning today.

Ok but that's not answering my question is it? What does it actually mean and who is saying it and why. When for a very long time is was said as a means to hurt people as an insult?

What absolute bollocks.

Very few. Who has surgery for a laugh? I'm sure there's some older men who see it as a way of enacting whatever sexual fetish they have, or avoiding prison with men. But if we focus on the people who are being genuine (the majority, I think) then these have some form of GD. The thousand pound question, of course, is why do they have GD.

50/50 on this I'm neurodivergent I've always known what I am I'm inflexible in that area but mostly accepting of peoples life choices my dd is also neurodivergent she totally believes twaw genuinely believes that if everyone got genetic testing we would all be surprised at how many women with penis there are out there (doesn't seem to vocal about the men without a penis she is scathing about them believes them to be inauthentic) ds neurodivergent doesn't believe at all finds it peculiar (like me) that anyone could ever be confused or uncomfortable with their birth sex ds3 just doesn't give a hoot quite frankly he is quite severely autistic if he sees a "man" wearing a dress it is a man wearing a dress he quite literally says it how he sees it kudos if they pass but if they don't he calls it

Just because you can say, be or call yourself something doesn't mean you should.
There are a lot of people on this thread saying queer is a slur that it is offensive and hurts them to hear, then there others saying oh it's ok we're taking it back, but it's not ok is it, if you as a self identifying nb queer were called by your correct sex pronoun you'd be screaming from the rooftops about how offensive it was and literally ruined your life etc, so why is someone who finds the word queer offensive told that their feelings don't matter?
Taking it back my fat arse!

I have ADHD. As a child and teen I never felt I was a proper girl. It wasn't because of having traditional male clothing or interest likes, I was actually pretty feminine, but males and females are socialised completely differently still, and being someone with neurodivergent behaviour can leave you ostracised a lot more from female groups as the female socialisation just doesn't take the same. I think it's this that makes trans much more common in people who are neurodivergent.

I blurt things out, I interrupt, I forget and lose important things, as a child I was a risk taker, impulsive, bossy and argumentative. I don't have object permanence for both things and people like others do and I struggle with emotional regulation. Female social groups were a lot harder to navigate. There was much more talk of feelings and having to remember and consider how other people felt. There seemed to be a lot of drama and upset that didn't make sense to me. There seemed to be lots of unspoken rules I couldn't quite get a handle on, and I was often considered rude, because I didn't understand conversation in the same way and was quite blunt.

Boys were a lot easier to be with, they found the things I did funny and were more likely to join in, they liked talking about things like tv shows or random stuff rather than feelings. They didn't judge as much when I said something blunt, and would either challenge me in the moment or let it go. Interacting with them caused me less anxiety. For years I used to say to DH I didn't know how to do girl. I still feel like I'm not as good at being a woman as others are, and I'm not great at maintaining female relationships.

I absolutely would've believed I was trans if it had been a thing I was exposed to while I was younger, because as far as I was concerned, my brain and behaviour was like all the males around me and the women felt like they were different to me, a bit like a different nationality. I now know that's just because I have ADHD, and my brain works differently, but for years it made no sense to me why I couldn't just think and behave like the other girls could and I felt isolated and broken.

Older people will literally be offended by anything and everything that is slightly different to the world they grew up in so actually no a few people moaning about queer being reclaimed because it meant something different back in their day isn’t going to stop me iding as queer. Language has developed as it does with time that’s literally all there is to it

Please could you show those stats? I’m reasonably sure that stats have shown trans people are much less likely to be victims of violence per capita than women, and the vast majority of ‘attacks’ are self-reported events like mis-gendering or being asked why they’re in women’s toilets. (But happy to be corrected if anyone has accurate stats the other way.)

By the way I'm trans affirmative.

Is that an unnecessarily complicated way of saying you are trans?

I get this, but the LGBTQ people of my generation all seem to call themselves queer. I think it's because it's too much of a mess to think up terms to specify where on the gender / sexual attraction spectrum they fit. Perhaps they should have come up with a new word, but also as someone who is (mostly) straight but invested in supporting LGBTQ rights, it feels like the best term to use about someone I know personally is the term that they prefer to be used for themselves. I'd never say "queer" about someone who didn't use that term for themselves, mind.

Yes, 100% same for kids I know here. All autistic.

I don’t know the stats but every trans person I’ve met has also been autistic

What do you mean? You can identify as trans without being confused about your gender?

Older people like, say, your boss who's in their 40s/50s/60s?
It's fine to offend and in fact traumatise gay people because they are older than you?
Is it also fine to do the same for Black people who were called "N word" at school in the 70s?