Starmer, JKR, what's most important to most women?

[PupInAPram]

In my more than 60 years, decades of being a single working parent, many experiences of being on the bones of my arse, Labour Party policies have made huge beneficial differences in my day-to-day life. Worrying if there is a man in the next toilet or feeling uncomfortable with a trans woman has literally never been on my radar. If I'm making a decision about voting for the politician who can bring about the greatest good for the greatest number, it's Starmer every time. I wish JKR would just pipe down.

I don't mind JKR speaking up on this. But despite having GC views I agree with you that labour is likely to overall be better for women (and most people tbh) and so will vote for them. I'm the sort who would never vote tory though. I'd vote lib dem or green (and have done sometimes in the pas but they are even worse on this particular issue at the moment and let's face labour is the only real option to get the tories out.

BIossomtoes · Today 18:32
FOJN · Today 18:27

Why was a man charged with sexual offences as Adam Graham being assessed in a women's prison at all?

If he can be segregated in a women's prison he can be segregated in a men's prison.

If he’s segregated what does it matter

There you go again, Blossomtoes, introducing common sense.

I am working class . I managed to attended uni as a single mum in my early 30s and do a professional career. I then became unwell and my savings went on securing my children's wellbeing because I couldn't work anymore. Still trying to get back to work after 7 years away and I am broke and very lucky to be in council housing. My priority is safeguarding of women and children and having a secure roof over my head and enough to eat. If we redefine what a woman is then we don't have that. We cannot put poor and vulnerable women and children into hostels with men who identify as women. The majority may be safe, I am sure they are but how can we tell ? This is a class issue. Don't think it can't happen to you cos it can. Also I fear growing old and being washed by someone who is not my sex as I have been sexually abused . I fear my daughter not having not having me around and meeting a bad guy and not being able to access a hostel with kind women who will support her. Look at what is happening at Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre. Absolutely shocking and that person is still in position.
I will probably vote Labour as I fear the NHS is going to collapse and I am disgusted that black women are dying in labour at a developing world rate - that is a feminist issue and we should be appalled by that. I know Labour won't cure all but it will improve it. But ffs they are no friend to women the past few years. None of them are. They are just best of a bad lot. JK is spot on! Wish she was Pm!

It doesn't take 'vast numbers' to cause enormous issues for women.

One man identifying as a woman and being placed in a women's prison can cause huge trauma for many women and threaten their safety.

Why would you be okay with that?

"The number of women impacted by Jimmy Savile is very small indeed, because there was only one Jimmy Savile".

For goodness sake. The WHOLE POINT of safeguarding is that just ONE bad actor or sex offender can affect multiple women and girls.

There was a man with gender - miranda something, who campaigned for a 'third' space. Didnt get anywhere because of lack of support from other men, not because of funding.

What are you ok with?

Can you say where having men in female spaces is common sense

Third spaces are not wanted as it is not the space, it is the women in them.

Except you’ve conveniently ignored the significant movement in the poll figures when the question specified people who hadn’t had gender reassignment surgery.

And the responses relating to sports

That poll is more nuanced than you are suggesting.

I mean, there's no need to speculate on what might happen.

Right now, there is a man running a rape crisis centre in Scotland, despite the fact that that position was supposed to be female only. He isn't even 'legally female'.

This man has refused to allow rape victims to specify female only councillors. He has said that women wanting that need to 'reframe their trauma'. He's also publically speculated on whether females climax during rape.

All happening right now.

If it doesn’t matter he can be segregated in the male estate. Where he belongs. As he is a man.

You will not get a balanced or informed view on Mumsnet- it is well known as a hotbed of transphobia and the owners have made only very weak attempts to tackle it.

Here we go, throw out the transphobia trope, weak and unevidenced as it is hoping it will stick.

The vast majority of ordinary people do not care about trans people, it's not as if it's not entirely possible for a man identifying as a man to walk into a woman's toilets if they so choose anyway. Nearly all trans people just want to be left alone to be who they are without being harassed for it. You get predatory trans people no more often than you get predatory cis people.

The vast majority of ordinary people when asked do not support TW in women's spaces and services and the numbers rise every time the polls are done. By blurring the boundaries of who can use women's spaces the door is opened to all men. It's been shown that TW have the same crime pattern behaviour as any other men. Funny how we all have to validate trans people until one of them offends and then all of a sudden the trans community unvalidates them by denying their existence.

JKR is clearly traumatised by her experiences with men and seems to enjoy the attention she gets from punching down to an already marginalised and vulnerable group. It's a shame she's decided to destroy her own legacy, but she can have her opinion- I (and many other people) will just stop paying attention to her or buying anything related to her.

You think JKR enjoys receiving graphic death, rape and abuse threats? Let's be clear about this those people sending those threats are the ones who want to be in women's spaces and services. Her legacy is not destroyed it will be as a woman who stood for women's rights despite the most horrendous and chilling abuse and threats.

And yes, I have 2 daughters, I am not in the least bit concerned about them being in a cubicle next door to a trans woman.

Yeah, sure you'll make sure you perform the necessary validation and teach your daughters to do the same, very do it to Julia. Nice.

have ever encountered someone who is obviously a man in a ladies loo.

And you are so blissfully out of touch with the lives of other women and girls, OP, that you are unable to put yourself in other women's shoes to at least imagine and discuss sensibly what the problems being grappled with are, and how they might best be solved (which may or may not then involve agreeing with JKR on all or some points).

And in the meantime you'd like JKR and presumably anyone else trying to articulate their concerns, or to talk about what boys or men have done to them or their loved ones in their own lives (which have been less charmed than yours), to just Pipe Down?

How have you spent so long on the planet and learned so little?

Oh dear me.

Exactly. Or rather, the women whose presence can "give validation" to a man that he's a woman. It's not about safety. If it was, third spaces would be jumped at. It's about validation, regardless of the needs of the women themselves.

Tell us, do some of you who disagree with JKR believe women deserve things like menopause groups to exist as a resource for themselves, or do you really think that "trans women" should be included, despite never, ever experiencing either periods or menopause, given they don't have wombs? After all, even one of the trustees of the Fawcett Society was banging on about the "trans women" in her menopause group and how great/stylish this person and their lippy was.

What was a "trans woman" doing there, though? What do you think was their purpose or motivation? And what about the women who were there to discuss actual menopause? Why were they being sidelined for someone who will never experience it and why does that person get fawned over anyway? Honestly, WAKE UP.

If I've led a charmed life, I'd hate to see an uncharmed one!

What was a "trans woman" doing there, though? What do you think was their purpose or motivation

I don't think you really want to know......

For those saying 'oh if they're segregated that's fine' Barbie Khardashian, who was previously incarcerated in Limerick women's prison, was also 'segregated' (though only for 23 hours, as total segregation is very rare due to prisoner rights). He was still able to roar sexual abuse from his cell at the female prisoners. He also threatened to rape his female guards.

@thefireplace
No the issue is men's rights activists colonising women's spaces.

I mean honestly? I don’t.

To me sex and gender are the same thing and always will be. They are just words that can be used interchangeably.

Worrying if there is a man in the next toilet or feeling uncomfortable with a trans woman has literally never been on my radar You’ve spectacularly missed the point. It’s never been about feeling uncomfortable with trans women for JKR. She isn’t uncomfortable with trans women. She said as much in the essay that so few of her detractors have bothered to actually read. I’m paraphrasing madly but she said that people should present however they want to present and that she’d stand alongside anyone who was being victimised because of that. What she’s campaigning for is women’s rights. You know, the right to play a sport without having your skull fractured or being ‘folded like a deckchair’ and actually having a chance to win because none of your fellow competitors have benefited from male puberty. It’s about the right to have intimate care from another female. It’s the right for female prisoners to not have to go to sleep in a cell knowing that their cell mate is a convicted rapist who still has a fully working penis. It’s about the right for women in refuges and in rape support groups, many of whom are terrified of males, not to have to share accommodation or discuss their trauma in mixed sex groups.

I mean, we can reduce it to toilets if you want. And even if we ignore the women who can’t then use those facilities because of religious reasons or because of previous trauma at the hands of males, then we can discuss the offending patterns of predatory males that don’t vanish after transition and how women can’t tell the difference between that tiny minority and all the lovely innocent trans women who just want a wee. And that while a sign on the door isn’t going to stop a predator from walking straight in, it’s much safer for women to be able to kick up a fuss the second a male is seen entering the women’s toilets, rather than debate with ourselves whether it’s someone we need to worry about or whether we’re going to hurt someone’s feelings.

If I'm making a decision about voting for the politician who can bring about the greatest good for the greatest number, it's Starmer every time. Do give over! He hasn’t even got the courage of his own convictions. One minute he’s all ‘it’s not right to say that only women have a cervix’ and talking about how some women have penises, but the closer we get to the election and a chat with uncle Tony, and he’s completely backtracking and suspending Michael Cashman for making disparaging comments about Rosie Duffield. He’s utterly spineless and flip flops between whatever is going to get him elected. Don’t you want a leader who actually believes what they’re saying?

I wish JKR would just pipe down I wish she’d go into politics. She’d have my vote.

Not sure why a prisoner can’t be segregated in the same sex provision anyway

Can I just point out that segregation in prison doesn't necessarily mean solitary confinement, it just means being away from the general population. This means Isla Bryson may well have been in with some women.

You agree with the poster who talks about people who disagree with you as pearl clutchers who are frothing at the mouth yet say you want discussion not insults? It is this sort of clever arse wording the helped brexit get voted in. I wanted to remain but never would insult people who wanted to leave as stupid racist or gammon. Similarly insults like latte drinking humus eating guardian readers for remainers didn’t help the debate. Just make your points not personal insults.

To me sex and gender are the same thing and always will be.

Sex is easy to define but what is gender?

EasternStandard
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What are you ok with?
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Can you say where having men in female spaces is common sense”

Disingenuous. The point, clearly, was that if the offender is segregated, what does it matter where they are?

Do you really believe that every transwoman is acting in bad faith?

FWIW, units for trans women/transmen would seem the obvious solution but with public finances as they are I can’t see that happening.