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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Starmer, JKR, what's most important to most women?

1000 replies

PupInAPram · 22/06/2024 13:14

In my more than 60 years, decades of being a single working parent, many experiences of being on the bones of my arse, Labour Party policies have made huge beneficial differences in my day-to-day life. Worrying if there is a man in the next toilet or feeling uncomfortable with a trans woman has literally never been on my radar. If I'm making a decision about voting for the politician who can bring about the greatest good for the greatest number, it's Starmer every time. I wish JKR would just pipe down.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
hihelenhi · 22/06/2024 15:40

DancingFeetzzz · 22/06/2024 15:34

Women in this country have far more pressing issues to base their vote on. Staggering that she can’t see that.

You don't know that "she doesn't see that". After all, she's been donating substantial amounts to multiple causes, not just this one, for YEARS.

Sheer ignorance. I suggest if you want to make accusations about what she does and doesn't "care about", you actually do your research about what she's done and donated to in her life, instead of making false accusations. Your criticisms here are not backed up by the facts.

CassieMaddox · 22/06/2024 15:40

TheKeatingFive · 22/06/2024 15:32

To listen to women on here, you'd think Duffield was some kind of saint. The reality appears to be she's a not very effective MP who was happy to say "women have cervixes" at a controversial time

Why should it ever be controversial to point out a basic biological fact? 🫠

Quite. It shouldn't be which is why it's so baffling how much love RD gets for saying it.

DancingFeetzzz · 22/06/2024 15:40

EasternStandard · 22/06/2024 15:38

You can’t really speak for others. Even this thread is majority yabu

I’m glad JKR is talking about this and can see plenty of other women are too

What is your preference btw? Men in female sports?

The majority YABU is because posters like yourself are drawn to any thread you can possibly post your obsession on. Most have long since lost interest in the subject.

whistleblower99 · 22/06/2024 15:40

For me it’s not just the women’s rights issue. I have family and friends who feel like their right to be homosexual is being erased. The genuine stress I’ve seen a teenage boy go through about coming out. All because the narrative was heavily pushed into the idea he’s probably straight but in the wrong body. It’s not ok to just be gay anymore that’s how he felt. Not only are women’s rights at risk here. It’s the rights that homosexuals have fought for. Lesbians in particular are often a huge target of this.

EasternStandard · 22/06/2024 15:42

DancingFeetzzz · 22/06/2024 15:40

The majority YABU is because posters like yourself are drawn to any thread you can possibly post your obsession on. Most have long since lost interest in the subject.

Why are you posting on it? Bit ironic

And yes I find the topic interesting and JKR excellent on it.

Your claim that you know how the majority feel is quite self assured and I’m not sure how you’d get to it.

Do you want men in female sports?

pleasehelpwi3 · 22/06/2024 15:42

I can't understand how NHS, education, defence, EU, the economy etc etc which Labour is so clearly better equipped to handle and all areas where the Tories have fucked up repeatedly on, are less important to Mumsnet readers than the issue of 0.1% (it's literally this) of the population who identify as trans woman. The Tories are taking millions from a man who wants to shoot Diane Abbot because she's a black woman for crying out loud.
Thank god for the country as whole, Mumsnet is a total outlier on this.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 22/06/2024 15:42

*I. Don’t. Give. A. Shit. About. Trans people!!!!!

As such you can lecture until your hearts content. I don’t care. Like most I don’t bother to read the loooong lectures posters such as yourself post.*

Well that's apparent.

DancingFeetzzz · 22/06/2024 15:43

pleasehelpwi3 · 22/06/2024 15:42

I can't understand how NHS, education, defence, EU, the economy etc etc which Labour is so clearly better equipped to handle and all areas where the Tories have fucked up repeatedly on, are less important to Mumsnet readers than the issue of 0.1% (it's literally this) of the population who identify as trans woman. The Tories are taking millions from a man who wants to shoot Diane Abbot because she's a black woman for crying out loud.
Thank god for the country as whole, Mumsnet is a total outlier on this.

This with bells on!!!

inamarina · 22/06/2024 15:43

SergeantDawkins · 22/06/2024 13:43

Wonder why that is?? It’s because they are women. Gosh. Sometimes I am amazed at how incredibly heartless people can be. But I know it comes from a place of fear and it’s irrational.

They’re not women though.
They’re biological men.
They might be uncomfortable with the biological reality of their sexed bodies, they might feel that presenting as a “woman” would make them more at ease. They might be struggling with stereotypes associated with being “male”.
On an individual level, all of that might be understandable and deserving compassion.
There should still be separate safe spaces for biological women though. Nothing heartless about it.

TheKeatingFive · 22/06/2024 15:43

CassieMaddox · 22/06/2024 15:40

Quite. It shouldn't be which is why it's so baffling how much love RD gets for saying it.

You're the one who said she 'said it at a controversial time'.

What on earth did you mean by that?

Why would there be 'controversial times' for biological facts? And whose fault is that?

RedToothBrush · 22/06/2024 15:43

whistleblower99 · 22/06/2024 15:40

For me it’s not just the women’s rights issue. I have family and friends who feel like their right to be homosexual is being erased. The genuine stress I’ve seen a teenage boy go through about coming out. All because the narrative was heavily pushed into the idea he’s probably straight but in the wrong body. It’s not ok to just be gay anymore that’s how he felt. Not only are women’s rights at risk here. It’s the rights that homosexuals have fought for. Lesbians in particular are often a huge target of this.

Be Kind.

Be Inclusive.

It's just like being gay.

GailBlancheViola · 22/06/2024 15:43

OK. Pretty rude, maybe you could engage with the statements.

I'm assuming then that youdocondemn Maya Forstater for what she recently said about a doctor doing their job?

Not up to speed on what Maya said about a doctor.

And that youwouldinsist a woman accepted a TW nurse or carer, as there are plenty of male nurses and carers around?

Jeez it's like pulling teeth with you - no I would not insist that a woman accept a TW nurse or carer, what the fuck are you on? The TW nurse or carer is in the same category as any other male nurse or carer and the women has the right to refuse male carers without having to justify or explain why. Any woman who has requested same sex care should never be presented with a TW to do that care.

TW can do any job they want but they are in the same category as any other male doing that job and therefore the same criteria that apply to males apply to them.

Is that clear enough for you?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 22/06/2024 15:44

We had an oh so progressive poster the other insisting to a rape survivor she should accept a male into her space, no matter how they identify. I weep for the mentality of these people. While that shit continues I'll be all over these threads like a rash.

blueshoes · 22/06/2024 15:44

OP, I think you have done more to highlight JKR's stance on mn that JKR could.

Well done.

TheKeatingFive · 22/06/2024 15:44

Wonder why that is?? It’s because they are women. Gosh.

They obviously aren't women and you know that as well as anyone. Why are you lying?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/06/2024 15:45

PupInAPram · 22/06/2024 15:31

Please don't call people idiots because they disagree with you. Thank you.

What exactly do you disagree with?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 22/06/2024 15:45

blueshoes · 22/06/2024 15:44

OP, I think you have done more to highlight JKR's stance on mn that JKR could.

Well done.

Yup.

Keeptoiletssafe · 22/06/2024 15:46

@PupInAPram @DancingFeetzzz I would be grateful if you could read the long post below. I know you mentioned toilets and why are people bothered about them but I am and everyone should be. @PupInAPram You were also concerned about practical solutions which is what I am concerned with too:

The government’s Document T details the toilet design legislation that will come in to force in October. This is for non domestic toilets so in offices, cinemas, shopping centres, pubs, clubs shops etc. The toilet designs are dangerous for everyone but in particular, disabled people, medically vulnerable, women and girls.

There are 4 toilet designs:

• A Ambulant universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• B Universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• C Single sex ambulant - profile diagram shows full height door and no door gaps, no partition gaps

• D Single sex - no profile diagram, no mention of door or partition heights, AND can be designed as Type A or B ie fully enclosed for single sex use

None of the designs specify a door gap at the bottom of the door or at the top.

Why do gaps matter?

Because toilet door gaps save lives.

If you collapse, being able to survive or if you suffer long-term damage, will be down to whether someone notices and rescues you.

If you’re out and about or at work and feel nauseous/ill you are likely to head to the toilet.
There are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to one every five minutes.
There are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes. There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet due to the physiological effects on the body.
Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. To put it into perspective there are around 9 children with epilepsy in an average secondary school.
There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes.

A recent government report noted 80% of the thousands of incidents of drink spiking happen in public places, usually in bars and clubs, mainly to women, average age 26.

Prevention of sexual assaults
In any space that becomes private, more offences are likely to take place. In Parliament it was discussed that there was at least 1 rape inside a school premises each day (over 600 in a 3 year period). The data, collected by the BBC, mentions an example occurring in a private cupboard. This was in 2015, before many schools decided to change their toilet designs to fully enclosed and mixed sex. There is no available data on these new toilet designs but, teachers and pupils are reporting many problems with drug dealing, dirt and sex. The toilet door gaps are vital for safeguarding to help prevent activities that stop pupils, especially girls, going to the toilet. There are known problems of girls avoiding toilets and getting urinary infections or missing school. This legislation does not affect schools but they have been at the ‘coalface’ of new experimental toilet designs so it a good demonstration of what goes wrong.

A quick internet search brings up the disproportionate number of sexual assaults and rapes that happen to able bodied and disabled women and girls in disabled toilets in this country which are obviously mixed sex and fully enclosed toilets, often in very public places such as busy train stations and shopping centres.

More problems with toilets with enclosed full height doors are:

  • Ventilation is decreased so there’s a higher risk of disease spread.
  • Evacuation times are greatly increased as a responder can’t tell quickly if stalls are occupied.
  • Hygiene is compromised as a mop can’t go underneath the doors nor floor be washed down. It is awkward to enter the cubicle with a mop and detritus ends up on the partition corners.
  • Doors are more likely to get stuck/warped and the cubicle out of action.
  • People are more likely to engage in illegal activities (drugs) or self harm if they are in a private space.
  • The length of time in a cubicle is increased, especially if the wash basin is in there so queues are longer.
  • Occupants can’t see if anyone is lying in wait outside their cubicle if they are feeling vulnerable.

Why have toilet cubicle door gaps disappeared from the new public toilet designs?

There are many articles and videos on why we have gaps under and over toilet doors - so it is worrying these have been ignored. The initial government consultation that was publicised several years ago led to Stonewall coordinating a response and very effectively dominating the results. There is nothing wrong with this lobbying but the policy goals that were created from the initial consultation concentrated on mixed sex ‘universal’ toilets and privacy because of toilets being mixed sex.

ARUP was appointed by the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities to carry out research into the toilet requirements of the population of England in the built environment, in particular disabled people and people with long-term health conditions. The government also did a second consultation. I wrote a lengthy response to the second consultation, detailing the statistics and practical need for door gaps but none of these issues were mentioned on published consultation results.

In the ARUP document, the justification (evidence and literature) for fully enclosed toilets comes from two American sources on p.129 of the report. I have spent time analysing these sources as so much seems to depend on them. These are a restroom design for a Minnesota high school and an American paper from Joel Sanders and Susan Stryker. The later two authors are referenced in the Minnesota project. In a recent Harvard talk (April 2024), Sanders said that transgender access to public restrooms rekindled his interest in queer space so he set up the ‘Stalled’ company with Prof Susan Stryker, but he admitted he did not have enough data on whether his designs worked as so few had been built. The reason for the fully enclosed idea is discussed in their paper referenced by ARUP: ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls.’

No safety concerns of fully enclosed cubicles were acknowledged in these two ARUP ‘evidences’. No analysis has been done on the safety on fully enclosed cubicles.

So the Arup recommendation for fully enclosed cubicles is from a tiny amount of very poor evidence and literature focused on a different group. Their ‘evidence’ bears no resemblance to any of the designs of UK toilets in Document T. Their ‘evidence’ does not take into account any long term health conditions nor disabilities’ analysis.

Considering it was looking at the requirements of people with long term health conditions, in the whole Arup document there was no mention of the words: seizure, faint, diabetes, cardiac, heart, epilepsy, syncope, endometriosis, menorrhagia, collapse. There was one mention of ‘stroke’ in reference to a grab rail. There are two pages of lists of references to handrails. However I would argue that a floor-to-door gap is even more vital in design for those having a stroke and those who are frail because of a previous stroke, so it can be seen they have collapsed.

What other equality impacts have been done?

I can not find any other evidence or research as to why the designs are fully enclosed in the published documents. Obviously this does not mean everything has been published. However, the Equality Impact Assessment for the Provision of Toilets (updated 15th May 2024) does not mention door gaps. It goes through all protected characteristics and does not identify any negative impacts of full enclosure.

Conclusion

In terms of negative impacts for the protected characteristics in the Equality Act (2010), the absence of door to floor gaps in design affects age, sex (discussed above), disability (discussed above), and pregnancy and maternity (as medically greater health risk). It affects everyone in terms of disease prevention, a medical emergency and fire evacuation.

The designs in Document T do specify that every door should be able to be opened from the outside and an inward opening door have a release mechanism so it can be pulled outwards in the event a body is blocking the door opening - but how do you know there is a body there? At the very least there should be a door gap of sufficient height between the floor and the bottom of the door to safeguard the occupant in single sex toilet designs C and D. As the designs are in Document T, there is no specification other than full height doors.

The government needs to enable people with long-term health conditions to live safe lives and help them be independent and in work. It needs women and children to be safe and prevent assaults through good design.

These designs have dismissed the rights of certain disabled groups (people with epilepsy etc) to a safe working and leisure environment.

There appears to be no emergency evacuation assessment and a fire risk assessment for a row of fully enclosed toilets compared to a ‘traditional’ row of toilets with door gaps.

There is no risk assessment on the impact of disease spread from less cleanable and less well ventilated fully enclosed toilets.

They do not recognise the danger of fully enclosed toilets for the chances of surviving a long term injury or death from collapse such as from a heart attack, stroke, epilepsy, brain injury, diabetes and fragility.

And they do not recognise the dangers, particularly to women and children, that a private space in a public area brings.

It would also be life-saving to have floor-to-door safety gaps in all medical settings that are single sex in design, as patients are obviously medically vulnerable but also there are recent reports on the high risk of sexual assaults.

No one in government has listened to me or any others that have raised this all through the consultation period or since. I expect there are women that contact JKRowling all the time about causes. It is very important to have people with a public profile that can raise issues, which she does.

Apolloneuro · 22/06/2024 15:46

whistleblower99 · 22/06/2024 15:40

For me it’s not just the women’s rights issue. I have family and friends who feel like their right to be homosexual is being erased. The genuine stress I’ve seen a teenage boy go through about coming out. All because the narrative was heavily pushed into the idea he’s probably straight but in the wrong body. It’s not ok to just be gay anymore that’s how he felt. Not only are women’s rights at risk here. It’s the rights that homosexuals have fought for. Lesbians in particular are often a huge target of this.

Interesting issue I hadn’t even thought of.

How ironic that some people who demand inclusivity and tolerance, down extend it to others.

hihelenhi · 22/06/2024 15:46

pleasehelpwi3 · 22/06/2024 15:42

I can't understand how NHS, education, defence, EU, the economy etc etc which Labour is so clearly better equipped to handle and all areas where the Tories have fucked up repeatedly on, are less important to Mumsnet readers than the issue of 0.1% (it's literally this) of the population who identify as trans woman. The Tories are taking millions from a man who wants to shoot Diane Abbot because she's a black woman for crying out loud.
Thank god for the country as whole, Mumsnet is a total outlier on this.

Because it's about 51% of the population, not the tiny percentage who identify as trans.

I think democracy, basic human righst and the legal rights of half the population are extremely important, not something to be complacent about (if you've lived anywhere where those were not taken for granted as they are in the UK, or lost overnight, you might understand why others are concerned and if we take our eye off the ball as we have done, we will lose them, and lose them quickly.) Amazingly, I can think about the NHS, eduction, defence, EU the economy etc AS WELL, like most people. I just don't agree that this is a "minor" issue, and certainly not one that people should "pipe down" about.

greengreyblue · 22/06/2024 15:47

Have not met one transgender person., Yes it’s important to protect single sex spaces-m but this is not at the forefront of my mind. KS has said they will do this and not back self ID. That’ll do me.

CassieMaddox · 22/06/2024 15:47

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/06/2024 15:35

So threats and VAWG is fine if they're "bad women? Non compliant women? Women who refuse to obey men?

A surprising world view to find on Mumsnet. He should have stood up for her from the outset.

Edited

All women MPs are getting death and rape threats and noone has a clue what is being done to support them. Jess Phillips and Stella Creasey also have had them, Starmer hasn't publicly spoken out in their support either. I don't think that's because he's a misogynist. I think its probably on advice about how not to encourage twitter trolls. Starmer did immediately remove the whip from Cashman for his comments to RD so it's not true to say he does nothing. That was a very strong show of public support.

RD is still in the party, as much as she complains. She needs to do what the rest of us do if we hate the boss; either change employers (cross the floor) or put up and shut up. It's getting kind of boring listening to GC feminists constantly going on about it.

ActivePeony · 22/06/2024 15:48

So.. the ideal government would do what exactly to support a trans woman who has been abused by a man? How will they protect her? She can’t go to a “women’s” shelter

He can go to a shelter for TW.

CassieMaddox · 22/06/2024 15:48

GailBlancheViola · 22/06/2024 15:43

OK. Pretty rude, maybe you could engage with the statements.

I'm assuming then that youdocondemn Maya Forstater for what she recently said about a doctor doing their job?

Not up to speed on what Maya said about a doctor.

And that youwouldinsist a woman accepted a TW nurse or carer, as there are plenty of male nurses and carers around?

Jeez it's like pulling teeth with you - no I would not insist that a woman accept a TW nurse or carer, what the fuck are you on? The TW nurse or carer is in the same category as any other male nurse or carer and the women has the right to refuse male carers without having to justify or explain why. Any woman who has requested same sex care should never be presented with a TW to do that care.

TW can do any job they want but they are in the same category as any other male doing that job and therefore the same criteria that apply to males apply to them.

Is that clear enough for you?

OK. Glad that is your personal view; other GC feminists would disagree.

LabourBetrayingWomen · 22/06/2024 15:48

SergeantDawkins · 22/06/2024 15:07

Oh so you’re banning male teachers in all-girl secondary schools then?

We can’t ban all men from places where women are vulnerable because women are vulnerable to men’s violence everywhere. The move to try to create safe spaces is just admitting that in the real world, we are never safe from men.

Edited

I hope we’re banning male teachers from the girls toilets and changing rooms. Women and girls are partially underdressed in those locations so more vulnerable.

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