Discrepancy in attitude towards school fees and nursery fees

[Happysallie]

I find it very curious in the various debates around school fees that:

1. School fees at an avg of £1,250-1,500 pcm is the preserve of the rich due to the sums involved; but

2. Nursery fees at an avg. of £1,250-1,500 pcm is… just an ordinary expense that parents should plan for

Every parent of a child under four is effectively paying the equivalent to a private education, probably at a far earlier stage in their careers / earning power.

No observation on private education right or wrong, just bizarre to see people spending £1,500 a month on private school as impossibly wealthy while most parents I know are scraping by, begging and borrowing, fund £2-3k a month in nursery fees.

This more an observation at the acceptance of insane nursery fees, than the cost of private education!

Aside from nursery fees, preschoolers are very cheap. Clothes are cheaper, they don’t eat much, happy with a trip to a free park, no extra curricular and holidays can be taken in term time. People don’t often have more than one child in full time nursery for the expense reason- plus they get funded hours.
not comparable

I assume it’s largely that for many people, it’s nursery fees or leave their job. It’s a ‘necessary evil’ if they want to work. A bit like rent, most people would agree it’s extortionate, however it’s pay it or live in a field. It doesn’t have the same ‘choice’ as private education. Every child is entitled to a state funded school place once they’re 4, that ‘free’ option doesn’t exist when they’re 1.

People accept the nursery fees because they're short term. Lots of people will plan to have one child at a time at nursery. Private school is the preserve of the rich because you need the capacity to pay the bill for many years and, if you have more than one child, for multiple children at once.

I do find it interesting how some people will scrimp and save on childcare and then splurge on private education though. Given the importance of the early years you'd think people would be willing to pay well for their childcare, but not always the case amongst the well-off.

Full nursery fees are for about 2 years, then you get some subsidy, then they start school. There is also government support for low income families. That’s why it’s not comparable.

Independent schools round here are more than £2k a month per dc too.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers it’s totally comparable.

I know many, many people with two children in nursery. Two children within four years is not unusual - particularly when you don’t start until your 30s!

@NuffSaidSam childcare fee’s aren’t necessarily any more short term than school fees. Most privately educated children are in secondary schools - so many parents will be paying ~5 years of fees per kid. That’s pretty similar to nursery.

Nursery fees are short term. Many parents take a hit on lifestyle, or even being in the red each month, for the short time of nursery. Not to mention cutting pension contributions/going part time for the time as well.

Also many people can get help toward nursery fees from funded hours, tax free childcare or tax credits/UC.

It isn’t comparable because there isn’t a state funded free nursery option

For most people, in order to have a child at all, you need to pay for them to be in some form of childcare for two years at least.

Not remotely similar to choosing between a free education and a paid one for 14 years.

Most children at our nursery are there from ~10 months until they go to school.

You can’t keep a job and have your child at nursery only aged 3-4.

Subsidised nursery fees at our nursery are still £1450pcm!

If state provided free nurseries were available there'd be a lot fewer people paying nursery fees.

Missed the challenge of my question there slightly.

We regard being able to afford private school fees as the preserve of the very rich…

… but consider this expense for parents of young children as something manageable.

Exactly. There is no alternative, either you pay for childcare or you don't go to work. Parents paying for private school have an alternative option they choose not to take.

It’s not comparable! My children are in state education- to put two of them in a holiday club for the holidays is c.£500 a week for 2 of them. In my opinion nursery money goes on other things as kids grow as get more demanding and expensive- to find the equivalent of nursery fees on top of that is wealthy.

Also to have two kids in nursery probably does make you wealthy- everyone on a normal wage has a c.3.5-4yr age gap to avoid this problem.

I’d love to have a state backed alternative. I’d bite their hand off.

Why do we accept that nursery fees are something manageable that parents can cut their cloth to afford, when private school fees are seen entirely differently? It’s the same amount each month.

Nursery costs are crazy in this country. I just do not understand why the narrative is that the nursery costs are a necessary feature of life and therefore must be afforded, but the private school equivalent is wild riches.

Well there are a couple of points really:

• At a nursery, most people will qualify for TFC per child as well as the funded hours from age 3.

• Many parents will flex their working hours, get help from grandparents or reduce their hours to reduce the amount of time their child is in nursery - a degree of flexibility you don't get in a school.

• Most kids don't start until after they turn 1 and finish any time from just before they turn 4 to just before they turn 5. So 3-4 years, compared to, say, 7 if you're just talking about private secondary education. And of course that 7 becomes 10-11 because you'll already have paid for the nursery years. A lot of people barely get themselves through the nursery years financially (and some don't and have to give up work instead.)

But really it comes down to the luxury v necessity questions, doesn't it?

Nursery fees are not manageable for a lot of people.

Hence stay at home mums, grandparent care, mum working nights while dad works days, etc etc.

They're not comparable. Many parents stagger having children to avoid sending more than one child to nursery at a time. It's also for perhaps 3 years, and some of those years are subsidised, with extra help for some.

I actually only know one couple who sent their child to nursery full time, while working. The majority of parents I know either had one parent at home for a few years, went part-time, did split shifts around the kids, or had child care help from grandparents to cut the amount of time their children were in nursery. Not the same as sending a child to private school at all.

You can also get employer's to help with childcare through workplace nurseries or tax free childcare.
You can't do that with private school.

We had one in nursery from 10 months, 3 days a week, workplace nursery. At 2 1/2 he got some free hours (adopted) and more at 3 but he's a bit too old for the 30 hours.
His sister started just about when his 15 hours kicked in, again 3 days a week though he went 4 days at that point so she got a mum or dad day.
Then she got 15 hours aged 2 - which was when he started school - and 30 hours aged 3.

So we only had one fully paid for 3 days a week for less than 2 years.
Two for 7 days a week for a year but with just over a day knocked off for DS 15 hours.
Then one for an average of 2 days a week paid for a year and then probably working out at 1 day a week paid for her final year.

And this all got a workplace discount.
It really isn't comparable to school fees at all. There was only one really expensive year between DD starting and DS going to school - they are less than 2 1/2 years apart.

I don’t know that many people think it’s manageable, just unavoidable. You have to find the money.
Same as we have to feed ourselves and our children. The quality/quantity etc of that food varies depending on the money each family has, but the basic need to provide basic sustenance is universal.

@Octavia64 nursery fees are completely unmanageable for most.

IMO we should be having less debate about whether or not you are rich to afford private schools, and more debates about the fact that everyone with a child under 4 is having to fund childcare for a similar (and often higher) price privately.

It's not manageable though is it. I know very few people who didn't do something to make it more affordable to work and have young children.

Options included, not returned to work until youngest child was at school, reduce hours so only paying for 3 days a week in childcare, have a family member do some of the childcare to help reduce costs, work compressed hours so you only do 4 days a week, both parents go back to work 4 days a week each having a different day off again reducing childcare cost, start your own business around children. I literally knew one mum who went back to work full time and her children went to full-time childcare. Everyone else did something to try and reduce the cost, you can't do that with private school.

If VAT is added to private school fees then surely it should be added to nursery fees as well?

Why do we accept that nursery fees are something manageable

I'm not sure many people do think that tbh.

Also you've quoted the full time costs, without taking into account tax free childcare. And without taking into account that a large percentage of those children won't be in full time. The parents may have help from grandparents, flex their hours, go part time, work shifts to free up weekdays etc.
It won't be that common at the nursery we use for any parents to be paying the full price because most children are part time. Plus you can take off £2,000 for tax free childcare.

School fees are at least 50% more than that

Secondary school runs for 7 years.

If you take a year or so of maternity leave, you're looking at two years of nursery fees before funding kicks in. Three years or so before they can go to school. If you're a middle income earner there is also some help with tax-free childcare.

Of course you can also use nursery part time, you can't use private school part time.

Nursery is pretty much all inclusive. Private school fees are just for the basics in most cases. Lots of things will be charged extra. Plus, you'll generally still need wraparound childcare.