Terrorists' vandalising Stone Henge and trying to force govt policy

[FoxJTT047101111]

We need the security services to shut the group down when they are carrying out what can be described as terrorist methods to influence govt policy.

Article by Zoe Williams in the Guardian today, comparing the massive media coverage of the Stonehenge protest to the near silence over the HUNDRED THOUSAND people marching to restore nature in London at the weekend. This is why people will continue to chuck orange stuff at iconic monuments.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/24/the-nature-march-had-a-huge-turnout-so-why-didnt-it-make-bigger-news

Even this will not be enough evidence of a 'groundswell of support' for those who live in their small bubbles.

Exactly. What marches?

Lots of you seem to keep coming back to this whenever your faith is challenged. It comes from the fundamentally flawed that it's better to do something than nothing. It's not. It depends what the something is. You can make things worse instead of better.

And as you're not the first person to default to this comment, you'll find I've actually already answered it. I'd simply not vandalise Stonehenge. That would completely remove any of the pain or problems it caused, and there's no proof it would be any worse for the environment either. Because, after all, none of you have managed to provide any evidence that vandalising Stonehenge has been a net gain. Still.

Basically, if you want to make the what can you do better then argument, you need to start by proving you've improved the status quo. That needs more than declarations of faith.

Do you have any evidence that it hasn't been a net gain, or improved the status quo? Just your opinion?

Indeed, @SocoBateVira has yet to provide evidence to back up their claim that it hasn’t achieved anything.

Do you know what’s worse than doing nothing? Drilling for yet more oil.

You don't quite seem to have understood how this works.

The people making the claim, that's the ones who are defending the vandalism, are the ones who have to provide the proof. I am very, very willing to listen to actual evidence. None of them have managed it yet. All we know so far is that it's ill disposed many people and, on the other side, one poster said it reminded her to contact her MP about a green matter.

So, where is the evidence that it has changed the status quo for the better?

How 'this' works, what's 'this'?

Discussion.

People will all come round eventually when the price of good continues to rise, they experience first hand the effects of extreme weather. The goal isn’t to persuade them. The goal is to create an impact and ‘shout’ metaphorically speaking, about the imminent danger we are in. The tactics they use get headlines.

This thread is proof it works. Up and down the country people will be talking about ‘these JSO’ idiots, which leads to the kind of conversations we are having on here. It keeps us mindful of our imminent demise when it’s all too say to forget when life just goes plodding along.

The goal isn’t sympathy to ‘the cause’. Sympathy to the cause is a bogus idea. That’s for things like animal welfare. Some people care and some people don’t and so you need to get people on board.That’s not the aim. The time for slowly getting people on board has long since gone. This is a global catastrophe that will impact us all. It’s an emergency situation rather than something needing a slow and steady change of attitude. JSO are a fog horn sounding the alarm. Which they are doing.

A side effect is that it might galvanise some of us to do more - having these conversations has made me think about it more again and realise I’ve gotten into some bad habits again and that I should be emailing my MP.

The main aim is to make a racket and get attention, which gets people talking and highlights that this is still the major challenge facing us and it’s urgent. We the people have exercised our democratic rights and campaigned hard on this for decades. What else is there to try?

*food not good

What are you on about? You’re the one making the claim that what JSO are doing is worse than doing nothing.

And I can only speak for myself but I don’t care about your willingness to listen to evidence, or anything else for that matter. Who do you think you are? The Right Honourable Lady Justice of WhatIReckon?

Have you proof that it has helped then?

As @Noddedoffagain says, "This thread is proof it works. Up and down the country people will be talking about ‘these JSO’ idiots".

Yes they are talking. And all I hear is what absolute twats they are and that they should be prosecuted.

Helped what? Helped public opinion of JSO? Helped people to think more about climate change? Helped to keep discussions around climate change ongoing? It certainly seems to be keeping climate change in the spotlight, but without carrying out an actual study I’m unable to provide proof (although that’s not a term that tends to be used in the sciences) of anything in this regard, no more than you are.

It’s the posters who are angry about JSO that started demanding proof of this and proof of that, not the people defending them.

And it’s not all you hear, is it, otherwise you wouldn’t be arguing with people.

Yes, helped the environmental cause in anyway whatsoever.

I never said I was arguing. I said I was talking.
I can only go by experiences and the experiences of my family, friends, work colleagues etc. All of which are that of being appalled by JSO actions.

No arguing going on as I agree that they are twats and should be prosecuted.

No, I'm really not. Reading is fundamental. I said it was a possibility, which it is, and that nobody has provided any proof that it's improved things, which it hasn't. The claims about it having achieved something were in fact made way before I joined the thread.

Anyway, this is a lot of words to tell us you still haven't got any evidence.

Yet again, this thread is not proof that it works. It's proof that it gets people talking. It isn't proof that it achieves anything beyond that, and the fact is that one possibility is that being the subject of more attention makes things worse.

I understand if you simply have faith that trashing Stonehenge will ultimately be helpful. You're entitled to your beliefs. The problem is when people present them as more than that. And, as has been pointed out a lot of times, being unable to think of something that will actually help doesn't mean this will.

It certainly works for me. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't have got an electric car, switched to cloth nappies and stopped using plastic at home. Some people just put their fingers over their ears and need a fog horn approach. I did.

If getting it talked about is one of the aims, then this thread IS proof it has worked. It has jogged our memory that we are in peril (or that we don’t think we are) and we have hashed it out a bit. Of course it’s not going solve the issue.

But the fire alarm is just there to alert us to danger, it’s job isn’t to put the fire out, teach the fire fighters or prevent future fires. It’s to alert us to do that. That’s the function of JSOs stunts in my view. They are trying to sound the alarm in novel and attention grabbing ways. And they do that well regardless of what one might think of their methods.

The only way it will make it worse is if it causes everyone to do what some posters on these threads suggest and say ‘right I don’t like the noise that fire alarm is making so I’m going to throw more fuel on the fire and make it worse’ - well you can’t argue with stupid, and some people just are stupid.

The actions of a few twp people isn’t going to make or break our survival.

Oh that’s interesting. I do see interviews with them, including one video of a worried grandmother that was heartbreaking, and it galvanises me to do more. I’m pretty low carbon in comparison to my peers, but there are ways I could improve.

I don't think they are doing themselves any favours. They said the two who vandalised the private jets had been jailed without trial.

No they were denied bail and are on remand. If they are dishonest about that how can I believe anything else they say?

They also had the spectacular miss of stopping an 'oil tanker' carrying veg oil.

@Isthisexpected I know parents who's children were born in the 1980s/90s who used cloth nappies. I've been recycling since then too. You used to have to take things to various 'banks' now the council pick it up from home.

There are people who disagree with your world view, outside of your small circle of friends and family

Err...yeah I know. That's why I said I can only go by my experiences.
Not sure what your point is?

Lots of us have made the point that 'working' in terms of achieving an unwise aim and being helpful aren't the same thing. Obviously we all know what the JSO rationale for doing these things is, but this doesn't mean we share yours and their faith that it will at some point lead to positive change.

And as has been pointed out a lot of times now, you, JSO and anyone else who might buy into the idea that all publicity is good publicity don't, if that turns out to be wrong, get to opt out of that consequence by saying it's stupid. JSO will, if this happens, still have played a part in making things worse than they would otherwise be. That will be their own fault.