Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

Your DN sounds angry AF. She's hurt and lashing out. That said, don't be her punching bag. Say no and keep the door open by saying you will discuss another visit next year (if you want to).

My gut reaction to that is that it would be more stressful for me having her hanging around at home, grounded and resentful, than it would be if we could agree on places to go and things to do. Those things are a distraction and that way it's a bit of a treat for me, rather than a week off work at home with a stroppy teen.

I've wondered whether it might be good for us both to go somewhere new, where perhaps she won't feel at home enough to kick off. I have a friend with a house in central Edinburgh who has said we could both go to stay with him. He's a former social worker, he's had children of his own and he's not bothered by angry teens. But a week in Edinburgh at festival time might feel too much like a reward rather than a punishment.

No way is she coming to stay - DN sounds dreadful. I think tell your sister that unless you receive a heartfelt apology for Christmas, the visit is off. Your sister may have no boundaries or standards, but that doesn’t mean you don’t. How hurtful and unpleasant for you.

I think the most loving consequence is to have her to stay with you @valsays but no friend, and low cost/free/no activities, just connection.

all the talk of slapping and cutting off - this is all escalation, and as with toddlers, connection before correction. that doesn’t mean no consequences, the consequence as she was a mare last time, is a quieter time this time.

also, a lot of this extremely deregulated behaviour rings bells for neurodiversity - is there any history of that on either side of the family? Have a read of how ADHD and ASD present in girls - I know her father has left and that’s likely a reason, but there could also be another underlying struggle with emotional regulation at play.

16 is old enough not to speak to anyone like shit, let alone family. I'm also saying she apologises or no dice on the visit.

Of course your sister wants you to suck it up. She gets a break, as you say!

Does she want to visit you? If so talk to her directly and be very clear that as much as you love her, boundaries are important and you won't tolerate being spoken to like that. Then invite her for a night or two but be clear that if her behaviour is poor she won't be invited back. If she accepts that I'd then spoil her as usual and try and have a lovely time. If it goes well then make plans for another visit. If she is a nightmare don't have her again until she has matured a bit more.
If she doesn't want to visit to see you i definitely wouldn't bother. I wouldn't be having any friends with her either.
If she has an issue with any of this then explain actions have consequences and she needs to consider your feelings.
I feel for her though- she sounds like she is in a tough place.

DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us.

WHAT. THE. ACTUAL. FUCK.

And your DS says to get on with it because it's part of dealing with a teenager?! Um, no. It is not.

I am rarely lost for words but wow....

What an interesting thread. I was fully signed up as one of the 99% saying don't host but having read your subsequent posts, OP, and others I can see both sides.

I think @Gladespade 's advice is wise.

I do similar trips with my own teen. It's different when they're your own of course, and maybe I'm misinterpreting, but my first thought is maybe it's time to move to planning the weekend more collaboratively with her, if you don't already. Start by asking her if she wants to come. Send her links to (low key) options, maybe make the visit shorter than usual. If you have planned it all it's SO easy for her to turn her nose up. Try to plan it together and if she doesn't want to come without there being clubbing, or won't even look at options that's fine - you'd miss her but you'd respect her choice. (I think also at nearly 16 it should genuinely be her choice and your sister needs to deal with it if she says no). Tell her finances are tighter so it'll be on more of a budget, so it's not personal.

It's a hard role to be the adult who doesn't give up on her, and I have huge respect for you for even opening up the discussion. It's irritating when something that starts as a favour becomes an obligation or even taken for granted. I think it would be ok to raise that gently with your sister. She should be more aware of how lucky she is to have you. But it is hard for people to remember that when they are firefighting.

No hint of neurodiversity. She's bright, sensitive, mature for her age, empathetic with friends. Doing well and popular at school. The bad behaviour is reserved for the safety of the family.

I was a very challenging teen to the point that my mum sent me to live with my aunt and uncle for a period of time as she couldn't cope with me. However I never in a million years would have behaved like this towards anyone. Let alone family.

Wow. Your "D"S needs to get this sorted ASAP.

And no, of course you're not going to host the ungrateful, entitled little shit again.

Nope.

It's a natural consequence, treat people badly and they won't want to spend time with you.

Yes they turn into little shits mid teens.
No you shouldn't have her to stay.
If her parents can't set expectations of good behaviour then you at least should trust your gut , respect your self worth and say not over your dead body will she be permitted to stay until she has shown respectful adult behaviour.
I would definitely call off summer 2024.
See how it pans out Christmas 2024 and reconsider in January. If no change then no summer freebie holiday.
These teens expect the privileges of an adult lifestyle eg clubs pubs money without the adult maturity or manners or responsibilities.
Just no no no. It will do DN a favour in the long run if someone calls her out on herself. Shock horror all round but you don't reward bad behaviour.
Tough if DS is desperate for a break. She's partly responsible not calling this for what it is and in so deep with this unreasonable shitty behaviour she can't see the wood for the trees.
(Talking from experience. ) Good luck.

Your sisters sanctions clearly aren't working are they? Your "D" N is rude, ungrateful and obnoxious. There is no way in hell that I'd be entertaining her, or buying her gifts again until her attitude alters!
I'd suggest that you spend that 1K on a nice relaxing break away for yourself and state quite clearly you are not available!

Absolutely "hell no" to taking her again!

"Sorry sis, but after last summer, when she was rude, argumentative and disrespectful, and the whole ho-hah at Christmas, I'm not willing to have her this year.
I can understand that you (and maybe her as well) will be disappointed, but it costs me a lot of money (which I haven't begrudged previously), and I can think of better uses for my time and money than being yelled at by DN.
I think there has to be some consequences for her behaviour towards me, and those consequences are "no trip". Maybe we can try again in another year or two."

@valsays not to pooh pooh you, but I was all those things, and was still ND (high masking and still am - you wouldn’t know unless you lived with me). If you look up the ‘coke bottle effect’ or ‘fine in school’ does either of those sound familiar?

It’s the strength of the tantrums which is making me question it more than anything - were they present when she was younger or is this a new since her dad left thing?

Op clearly wants to help her DN, comment after comment saying don't host the "spoiled brat" isn't really constructive.
Op I think your idea of going somewhere else is a good idea, not sure about staying with your friend though, might make it more stressful for you and your DN. Is there anywhere else you could both go alone together?
She might be able to open up to you if you have time alone.

@valsays That is a monstrously bratty behaviour. No WAY would I be having her to stay.
That is absolutely not standard behaviour for teens.

Ghastly girl who needs to be taught some basic manners.

If you have her to stay again, she will learn that she can treat you as badly as she wants with no consequences. And worse, she will grow up and treat anyone she wants as badly as she wants.

I would say that you cannot have her to stay, you are sorry.

And nobody should be needing a break from a 16yo. A 16yo is old enough to be a very big help, not a hinderance.

I think if it's somewhere else, as in a hotel, it will be pretty unpleasant unless DN has her own room to strop off to, which in August is going to be expensive!

Being ND is NOT an excuse for shitty behaviour.
It's not a green card that absolves all things as some like to think it is.

Fuck no. I'm sorry but absolutely no way would I have her. Yeah its crap when parents leave (happened to me, and domestic violence between them and a nasty, nasty divorce) but that is not an excuse to be such a vile, rude brat of a person. She is old enough to know right from wrong and if someone doesn't put their foot down with her (harder) then she is never going to get any better and will end up a very lonely person.

This 100%!!!

Have you actually challenged your niece about her behaviour? I would have done that during the last visit and sent her home if it didn’t improve. As for the present scenario- I am speechless, I’m a teacher and have rather DCs of my own so I do know how teens roll.

@oakleaffy assume that’s directed to me - I never said ND is an excuse for bad behaviour, in fact I’m NC with an abusive asshat of a sibling and am very hot on manners and respect with my own DC.

Just pointing out that the behaviour has some flags that bear investigation.

Your DSIS is part of the problem and sounds to me that the best thing you can do is say ‘no’ to DN staying! If ‘no’ is an unfamiliar word to DN then she’s about to receive a hard lesson in how her deeply unpleasant behaviour is going to make her world very small.

Not all teens are like this - mine isn’t, but then I have always had boundaries and expectations - I would never tolerate such rudeness and disrespect (and my DC are very aware of this!)