Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

I really feel for your sister here, as your niece sounds thoroughly unpleasant. Having to live with that every day, knowing your child is turning into a nasty piece of work must be quite soul destroying.

Even so, I wouldn’t have the niece come to stay. She can be a world class obnoxious piece of work in her own home.

There's no way you should be contemplating your DN staying with you. It's just accepting her behaviour. I also trust that you won't be buying Christmas presents this year.

I agree with this - but I don't see how anyone could think you were unreasonable for refusing to host her after her behaviour.

I think if you did feel able to do it, it would be good for your sister to have a break and it would show your niece that you're not going anywhere - unlike her dad.

Easy for me to say though...

@valsays I wasn't suggesting you hit her. I'm talking over 40 years ago, things were different then at one time even the police would give a kid a clip round the ear. It happened then I'm not saying you should do it.

It sounds very unhelpful that the therapist dismissed the anger as normal for the circumstances, and that may have left your S feeling that there is nothing to be done because it’s ‘normal’, and your DN upset and frightened because she is so angry and doesn’t want to be, but was told it was ‘normal’.

Even if anger and acting out is normal after such an experience as the abandonment/ divorce (and I dare say it is), surely no one wants it to go on indefinitely, and ruining relationships.

If I was your DSis I would take DN back for more professional support, looking for ways to enable her to manage her feelings.

Re the 300£ Christmas present- I hope you took it back to store and got refund, and didn't replace it with anything else for her.

I would suggest to your sister she is out of her depth and should consider getting her daughter professional help.

I would be concerned you can't keep her safe. If she's so angry and defiant, you risk her going off to a club until the early morning and sth happening to her while she's in your care.

Why not go over there and take DN out for dinner or a treat for the day? So no overnight stay with you, but it gives DS a break for an afternoon and shows DN you still care?

There have to be consequences to bad behaviour or she will continue!

Tell your DS that you won't be having her this year as she is becoming challenging!

Don't change your mind!

... and I'd think k very carefully about buying her a Christmas present this year.

She sounds entitled!

Hey OP, could your niece be scared about her mum's cancer and this makes her to lash out? The behaviour around her Christmas gift seems contrived, in the sense that she would have known the cost and thoughtfulness of the gift and throwing it in your face seems odd. Then leaving the room (to cry?). The incident being at Christmas, which heightens emotions for a lot of us, could be connected.

I know you say it's stage 1 but your niece might hear the word "cancer" and panic. With her dad not much in the picture, she might be worrying her mum might die and then what - she'll have to live with you? You are a second mum to her, could she be rebelling against that idea in the light of her mum's illness?

It's just a thought, obviously it's difficult to know without knowing any of you 🙂.

Is it worth having the conversation prior (with her and your sister if possible), that you would love to have her, but not if she behaves as she has done recently. Explain to her how her behaviour makes you feel, no judgement or ‘you make me feel this way’, more ‘when there is lots of shouting or rudeness it makes me sad, feel unloved etc.’ That you don’t want to feel this way and therefore if it happens again you will have to cut the visit short and she return home?

Teenagers can be difficult but DN is beyond the pale. That behavior is the result of poor parenting. There is no way I would subject myself to that, and your sister is being a CF to insist. By refusing you might teach DN a well-needed lesson that her mother has failed to teach her--bad behavior has negative consequences.

I think DN is old enough to feel the consequences of her actions, tbh, even if she is hurting. What you've described goes well beyond 'normal' teen rudeness. If it was just her I think you'd be mad to agree to the trip.

However I can see your rationale regarding giving Dsis a break. I still don't think this places any obligation on you - at the end of the day DN is her child and unfortunately, living with your child daily and not getting an extended break from them is the natural consequence of being a parent, and something millions of single parents have to deal with. It doesn't sound as though DN is unable to be left alone for any reason so surely Dsis still gets some sort of break - seeing friends, going to the gym or for a drink in the evening, just not something like an overnight break, and tbh within the next year or two DN will be old enough for that too, and possibly living away in uni herself. So it's not as if DN was only 4 and DSIS was facing another 14 years of no break at all. Tbh I think Dsis is being a bit cheeky to still expect it given what's happened, as much as she might appreciate it. In her shoes I'd be begging you to do her the favour not sulking at the idea you won't.

If you were willing to let DN stay just to support Dsis I'd dial it right back - she can stay with you but no friend and no trips, literally just staying in your house, so it's more like respite care than a holiday. Anything else would just be rewarding bad behaviour.

Not a snowball's chance in hell I would be rewarding DN's rude and obnoxious behaviour with a treat at my expense. She is plenty old enough to understand that actions have consequences, and the consequence here is that the treat is not going to happen this year.

That said, I wouldn't close the door completely. DN might be struggling with the divorce and/or going through a teenage phase. So my approach would be to say something like 'Your visit wasn't very enjoyable for anyone last year, so let's take a pause this year and then we can see how we all feel about it in a year's time'.

As for your DS, I'm afraid I'd just say 'I'm not going to be having DN to stay this August as her behaviour was so appalling last year and at Christmas. You'll have to make alternative arrangements for her.'

Absolutely no way would I be hosting her again. Your sister has some front!

My siblings don’t have my children to stay ever and I’ve never asked them. (To be fair my parents do but they’ve been nagging me all year to be able to!)

If I were to message her and ask her about that, ask her why she's so angry with me and what we can both do about it, is that likely to help

No. No it won't. It will appear to your neice that you are begging for forgiveness for some perceived wrong doing. That you aren't aware of.
Really simply, when a teenager treats you with contempt, it's a good idea not to continue to spoil said teenager. It doesn't set them up for a healthy, fulfilling future. They still need to be brought up with manners and appreciating their loved ones. She might have stuff going on but so do plenty of other kids. Instead of shielding them from anything remotely negative, they need the exposure then the guidance to deal with the feelings that come with it.
The best thing you could do for your neice is say that due to how the visit went last time, you are not willing to do it again this year. Let her ponder on that. Show her that you can be kind and supportive but also have your own firm boundaries in place. Her treating you like dirt comes with consequences.

We've got twin teens and they have never ever behaved like that to family. Your sister reaps what she does, why should you have to put up with such bad behaviour? You didn't bring her up!

Having read your update about your sister’s cancer diagnosis, I think the suggestion about having just her to stay and not planning lots of activities and treats is a good one, to give your sis a break and for consistency if she does view you as a mother figure. So it’s less a treat. And making it clear up front that that is what is on offer so she doesn’t then complain (you won’t plan anything but she is still welcome to come and hang out if she wants to, but no friend this time.) If she behaves well you can ask her if she fancies a meal out that eve etc. I wouldn’t even take all the days off work as that may be a pressure for her - at 16, she is probably happy mooching about shops, coffee shops, being on phone etc. She then may also be able to enjoy an evening together if she has had some time to decompress in the day. Even if you take a day off, maybe just do something together for a couple of hours. I do still think that allowing her to act terribly won’t help as it will likely make her feel terrible about herself as well. You can be clear her behaviour isn’t acceptable and is hurtful whilst also being clear you love her. If you aren’t spending huge sums and can save some holiday days then maybe that will also mean you feel better about having her to stay.
You sound like a lovely aunt and hopefully this is just a phase. I could be horrid to my mum at that particular age (though absolutely nothing like you’ve described). I feel awful about it now!

Hey OP, could your niece be scared about her mum's cancer and this makes her to lash out?

The cancer diagnosis came after Christmas but my sister had been worried for some time beforehand that something wasn't right. Knowing my DS she would have tried not to say anything to my DN but she did talk a bit to me. So my niece could perhaps, probably subconsciously, have picked up on some residual anxiety. DN has her own relationship with her DF and I think he's behaved pretty abominably, so at Christmas DN might have been reacting to something he'd done or said (or more likely not done or said.) It's complicated — but of course it's always very easy just to blame the mother for everything.

Hold firm and tell your sister visit is off this year.

Could there be some jealousy of her friend? You say the friend behaved well, perhaps your niece took that wrong and is nursing a grudge.

Your DN is obviously troubled by her DF leaving. Maybe when you lived with them for a while, then left again, it felt like her Dad leaving again and made her worse? I think the anger she's poring onto you is misplaced, it's how she feels about her Dad, not you but she's not mature enough to see that.
In your place I still wouldn't have her to stay until you've spoken to her. I know your DS needs a break but if your DN thinks your only taking her for your DS's sake then that won't help anyone.

Show your ds and db this thread.

It is not normal and if my dd said F off and threw a gift back, she had better start running because I would be taking my shoe off…

You are demonstrating that there are consequences to actions. It’ll do her some good. I wouldn’t be bothering with presents either. Teens can be shit but only their parents HAVE to put up with it.

You don't reward behavioir like at when they're 16 and perfectly capable of apologising but refuse to do so.

I wouldn't be having her around nor buying her any Christmas or birthday presents.

That therapist sounds about as useful as a chocolate teapot, I'd recommend your sister finding a better one because none of your DNs behaviour is normal or acceptable and the longer your sister believes that worse your DNs will be as she moves into early adulthood.

If you feel the need to give your sister a break then DNs can come but no friend and no money spent on her, she can sit in four walls and stew in the silence of everyday life.

You say you don’t think your DS is the problem but the fact that she assumes you’ll happily spend £1k hosting DN after the way she treated you last time and at Christmas speaks volumes. She is absolutely part of the problem. And I accept DN is likely having issues with her dad. However she’s 16, not 8. It’s not acceptable to take it out on you and to behave so rudely when given a gift.