Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

Fucking hell, people on here are mean.
OP - you are doing the right thing. Your DN has been abandoned by her dad and her mum is battling cancer, it's not uncommon for people to react by pushing those close to them away. Especially a child whose brain is still developing and who feels thing much more strongly than an adult.
Yes, she needs be told her behaviour is not acceptable and there have to be consequences. But she's family, don't give up on her now.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual.

She's not completely wrong, dealing with difficult behaviour is part of dealing with teens. The difference is that you don't have a teen, she does, so you are in no way obligated to deal with her.

And also, this isn't average teen behaviour. That level of hostility and ingratitude is quite extreme. If her Mum has a habit of shielding her from consequences, that might well explain why she thinks her behaviour is acceptable.

I see 1% has voted YABU. I guess that's your sister, Op.

Whilst this wouldn’t be choice I would make - you do you.

My only concern is that it’s not very fair to knowingly take a stroppy poorly behaved teenager and inflict them on your friend. I hope you have been open and honest with your friend about the recent behaviour and your plan to manage your DN if she is equally rude during her stay at your friends.

You are obviously a very kind and generous auntie (incredibly generous), but I don't know if the trip to Edinburgh is a good idea.

1. Does she even want to stay with you? Her behaviour at Christmas and no contact since suggests not, it's your sister who wants it.

2.She's 16 now, if she decides to take off in Edinburgh and go to bars, go clubbing, be out of contact etc, there will be little you can do and imagine the stress for you and DS.

1. Whilst you sound like a very understanding and forgiving person, the way she behaved towards you was appalling really, and she will have only learned that it's fine to be abusive towards people that love her. Not great. It she was genuinely sorry then out of love I would forgive her, but I am not sure that she is?

I know what happened with her useless father was awful, but still her behaviour was extreme. I have 2 DNs who, as it turned out, had similar /even worse things to deal with as kids (I was unaware at the time, they are now young adults). I give them a lot of support and we are quite close. They would never have DREAMT of speaking to an aunt/uncle/grandparent in that way.

You say how she is doing well at school and popular etc. So she does know how to behave well but for some reason thinks she can take it out on you. Sounds like the angry feeling towards her dad is diverted on to you somehow? Maybe offer to pay for therapy for her instead of paying out hundreds on a trip to Edinburgh which she may not even want and which could go very wrong.

The problem is, OP, that your own heading to this thread is, "I really dislike my niece and don't want to have her to stay". You then describe behaviour that was shockingly bad. Although it might well be linked to unhappiness at her dad leaving home when she was small, it also matches the behaviour of very spoiled teenagers.

Who the hell throws a Christmas present back at someone - especially when it's something they asked for? Who swears at someone when they are visiting them for a holiday?

Yes, she sounds unhappy but she's 16 and she surely knows that she can't behave like a toddler having a tantrum. It's doing her no favours at all to treat her to another holiday. I know you want your sister to have a rest from her, but that rest shouldn't be a reward for your niece. Why not offer your place to your sister and a friend for a few days, while you go and babysit the niece. You can work from home (if that's possible for you) and spend time with your mum (if she's nearby) but your niece can carry on with her regular activities while her mother has a nice break.

The fact that the negativity continued, and there's so much of it, has left me feeling very low. We haven't come very far in understanding others' behaviour, have we? It's depressing.

From the aunty who writes a thread titled "I really dislike my niece: dont want her to stay" and only stops slagging the niece off when OTHERS point out reasons for the behaviour.

Oh the irony!

Could you take your DN out to lunch.
Tell her she really hurt you at Christmas.
Then tell her, last year her stay was not the relaxing time you wanted.
Ask her why? Do not speak for 5 mins.
Then repeat why were you punishing me , for trying to treat you?
Do you even want to stay?

She asked AIBU. She received support for her feelings and decision. Then she became offended at that support and agreement. Now she is whimsically dreaming up holiday scenarios.

There was no wavering in her orginal few posts. Now it's as if they and the events described never happened.

In a strange way the shocking, deeply depressing torrent of negativity and spite was useful: it knocked me into 'Hold on a fucking moment...' territory and I was able to see clues as to why my DN had behaved as badly as she did. The fact that the negativity continued, and there's so much of it, has left me feeling very low. We haven't come very far in understanding others' behaviour, have we? It's depressing.

See I actually think you've been very rude and unpleasant about posters trying to support and advise you. Your DNs behaviour is pretty shocking. And while it's commendable to want to understand the behaviour and recognise that it comes from a place of hurt, that does NOT mean no consequences and that the behaviour is tolerated. That does her no favours as she develops into a young woman.

Your plan equals more rewards. Plus you and family are making suppositions to excuse her behaviour. I understand you have guilt re giving sister a break but really? Can your sister talk to ex - obviously a lot of bad blood there but I'd drop her off there.

So I don't think you're being the arsehole BUT I was this teenager. I was truly horrible (I'm 40 now...hopefully slightly less horrible)

I think she is probably extremely unhappy and I imagine also doesn't like the way she's acting. And I bet your sister also needs a break

I would try not to give up on her. I definitely don't think she should be allowed to bring a friend to stay but is there a way she can come by herself for a shorter time? Give you sister some respite and maybe without the added audience you might be able to get through to her. I imagine that the niece you loved so much is still in there but is under a cloud of angry hormones and feeling pretty lost

When I was the awful little shit that I was, a lot of people (including my parents) made it very clear they didn't want to deal with me and I just went further off the rails and felt pretty lonely. I'm really lucky that I had an older cousin who kept me anchored. I know this isn't your responsibility directly but maybe there is a way that you can try and reset with her

I hope you’re doing okay OP. The tone of some posters is very unkind and they appear to be blaming their choice of tone on your choice of thread title. I imagine that the title came out of the frustration and hurt you are feeling, not from the place of spite that these posters seem to be suggesting. You seem now to have reached a place of compassion for both your niece and yourself. I hope that you’re able to take what’s been helpful from the thread and shake off any comments that haven’t, and I hope things go well in your relationship going forward.

@MrsSquiggleshouldbeaspinoff nails it. Don’t impose your ‘challenging’ niece on your friend or you’ll lose a friend too. The last thing I would think of when someone had been rude and ungrateful to me would be to even contemplate imposing them on someone else.

Sorry, but I think taking her on a trip to Edinburgh is pandering to her and rewarding bad behaviour. I’m thinking you’re part of the problem yourself as nobody would surely knowingly expose friends to a child whose behaviour embarrassed her own young friend. You and your sister want to be her friend, not the appropriate adults in her life, it seems.

It was drummed into us as children that we must behave or we wouldn’t be asked back. Say thank you for gifts in a polite and timely fashion. Both of those are absolutely basic.

I haven’t issued return invitations to adults who have behaved in a spoilt and entitled fashion in my own home, but I have hosted young people who were fantastic company again, and pleased to do so.

How awful , you sound like an extremely understanding and kind person .
I think you’re her “ safe “ person to sound off / get angry at .
Everything that’s happened with her mum and dad has made her so stressed rude and angry .
This isn’t “ normal “ teenage behaviour.
I have read some of your other comments on this post and I think heading somewhere different like Edinburgh would be a great idea .
I know Edinburgh very well and there would be lots to do at that time of year plus quieter places to go and relax ( even get a train out to North Berwick or a car to get to the East Lothian coast and countryside ? )
I’d definitely make your expectations clear though that she doesn’t treat you with such disrespect

This and no christmas present. Why would you buy her anything when she threw it at you and said you are shit at everything. Just NO.

I think you've gone above and beyond for this absolute cowbag of a child for long enough. Your sister probably looks forward to heaving her off on you for the break. Say no and stick to it.

@MILTOBE
That is really a great suggestion. If OP's DS is feeling up to it, a bit of a break with a friend at OP's house would be so nice for her! OP could stay at DS's house, visit her Mom and still spend quality time with DN, if DN wants that.

I feel for the DS. Cancer is just shit, and DS deserves a break, some way or another, depending on how she is feeling. I also imagine that DN is scared shitless that she will lose her other parent, but she is going about it in the wrong way. Hopefully, counselling will help.

I would try not to give up on her.

Not treating her to a holiday this year is hardly giving up on her is it?

I have no children of my own, unfortunately, but many years experience of working in secondary schools. The teens who behave like the OP's DN are the minority and are normally that way because of being spoiled rotten. (Yes, there are some where it's a trauma response, but I'm assuming that's not the case for the OP's niece?)

Editing

I've just seen the comments about cancer. Might be a trauma response after all, but I can quite understand OP not wanting to subject herself to this kind of behaviour.

@MILTOBE nails it, taking her away to Edinburgh is just rewarding her frankly shocking behaviour. Totally understand you want to help your DS but it’s really not ok that she speaks to you like that and gets away with it. What if her behaviour gets worse while you’re away? Much better to ‘babysit’ DN for a week and let your DS have the break she needs without having to give up your holidays and stuff (if you can work from their house for example).

you also should consider @Pemba ‘s questions before committing to taking her away. Has she even apologised to you? Agreed to behave herself?

I've had some very questionable gifts in the past, but never would I ever behave the way your niece did, literally throwing it back in your face and swearing at you. How utterly disrespectful. Stick to your guns. Your niece needs a wake up call that if you treat people like this, they won't want to spend time (or money) with you.

To ask someone to be respectful is not a high bar to hold someone to. If she couldn't rise to that very simple challenge, then she would not be welcome in my home either (and I expect many if her friends will feel the same way and not put up with the attitude and flack that her mum takes from her). She needs to grow up before she ends up very lonely.

Could DN see her dad this summer instead of visiting you?

Hi OP, I can see that you have scoped out the trip to Edinburgh (yes, RTFT), but I wondered if you might consider turning the situation on its head and instead of having your DN to stay, you might have her mum, your DS, to stay? It would give her the break she needs from her child, I am hoping she could stay with a friend for a couple of days and you could support your sister and have those safe space conversations about life and death.

The thing is, we all know that this is a phase, a bloody awful one to be honest, but even so she will come out the other side eventually but there is no reason why you and your DS should suffer. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Was about to post this - I was sociable, mature, empathetic etc etc, actually autistic and high masking. Add in being a teenager and a difficult situation at home and you have a perfect storm.
@valsays Good luck, she needs you more than she can express.

I also wonder if her mum is wanting it more than her.

Perhaps she's hoping not to asked this year!