Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

I used to stay with my Aunite over the summer as a break and I was a typical moody teenager. If I had behaved like that I would have been on the first train home though, that is not acceptable behaviour.

I am sorry her behaviour has spoiled what should have been a lovely tradition for you, I have such fond memories of my Auntie. Absolutely not your fault and don't feel bad for saying no.

Definitely have neice to stay for a few days

Your sister needs the break

No friend, though, just neice

I agree that doing something completely different (Edinburgh?) is a good idea

I think 3 strikes should be used. Give a warning after each episode of bad behaviour , after 3 warnings you take neice home

Your niece has to understand there are consequences when you treat people with total disrespect and abuse their generosity. Whilst a mother’s love is unconditional, yours isn’t.

Keep in touch and be kind but I’d consider buying less expensive gifts - hopefully she’ll grow up and realise how appalling she’s behaved towards you and your relationship.

Your sister is cross at you because she needs a break, not because YABU.
That isn’t normal teenage behaviour and while it’s obviously acceptable to your sister, it’s not acceptable to you.
Do not have her, she will be worse than last time and may end up sneaking out at night etc. You don’t want the responsibility of that either.
She sounds like she may have ADHD but still not your job to be dealing with

Mine were like this, good as gold to.the outside world where the daily struggle to mask their undiagnosed ADD/ODD was unleashed in their safe space at home and around loved ones. Behaviour very similar to your DN. Father had also walked out. Couldn't regulate their feelings, self-harmed, thoughts of suicide etc. Now they are young adults and getting the help they need they are like different girls. I feel for your DS, so hard as a single mum to deal with the daily battles, sanctions and consequences having no affect and often making the troubled teen behaviour escalate through fear and dark thoughts being unable to be supressed.

The amount of crap people have cooked up in their minds to excuse this absolutely shit behaviour is frankly, appalling. She doesn't deserve a fun and expensive trip to her aunt's this year after what she's done, that's all there is to it. What sort of message does it send to let her have it anyway?

It’s not your job to provide breaks. It’s misguided to reward DNs poor behaviour by continuing with the London treat, this is exactly why your sister is in this position in the first place. No one is following through with consequences. You will be helping your sister and niece in the long run by being firm.

Yes, give your niece a year off but extend the invitation to the friend of your niece, via her parents.

Invite your niece again next year, if she has apologised.
Teens do improve a LOT from age 16 to 17, from my experience.

My mum had cancer when I was a young teen and I didnt tell people their presents were shit. Yes, she may be upset about stuff but that is not a reason to treat people like something off the bottom of her shoe is it?

She needs to know that there are consequences for behaving like that, if she doesn't learn this then I'm afraid life will be extremely hard for her later on as future employers or partners simply wont put up with this nonsense and then she'll be shocked when she cant get exactly what she wants.

Noone is doing her any favours by simply ignoring this- this isnt "love", its setting her up for massive failure later on in life.

I am so sorry to hear that. I have seen you on these boards for years.

It's a tough old journey but with love and care they come out at the other end eventually. Hopefully she is getting the support she needs clinically and that someone is looking after you too.

Be kind to yourself; there will be a myriad of reasons and likely she's done so well for so long because she's been loved and parented well.

That's not normal teen behaviour. She's either a spoilt entitled girl or there are some issues there that need addressing. Anxiety, depression from the divorce etc

She may need some support from a professional to get to the bottom of things but her behaviour is unacceptable.

Once your sister steps up and addresses her daughter behaviour then you can provide support for them both by hosting her but you are not an unpaid hotel/carer/therapist/emotional punch bag. Stand up for yourself.

This girl's in turmoil. She's navigating adolescence which has hit her badly - the change in attitude, behaviour and personality looks extreme, but hormones can be hell. Happens to us all - but she's suffering a multi-whammy at this vulnerable time.

She is old enough to know exactly what her father did, which will mean she's coping with rage and disgust against him.

She'll also be coping with sadness for her mother, whose reaction to the affair and its consequence she'll have had to cope with alone.

Then being abandoned by her dad was another blow that will stay with her all her life.

And now she'll be terrified that her mother having cancer could mean she loses her, too.

The poor kid, it's not punishments or criticism or sanctions she needs, it's professional help. Which you can't give.

And a holiday will be like sticking a bandaid on a broken leg, wondering why it doesn't mend and blaming the leg.

Stop throwing money at your niece. It will not help and you'll be eaten up with more resentment as someone who isn't used to traumatised adolescents and isn't qualified to help.

And the same goes for your grieving and frightened sister, whose own rage against him and fear of her cancer are being hurled at you.

That's a massive burden for you to try to carry.

Three people aren't behaving like adults, and only one has the reasonable excuse that she isn't one.

What kind of therapy are they both having?

She may need some support from a professional to get to the bottom of things but her behaviour is unacceptable

Yes, and both things can be addressed at the same time, it's not either/or as some people seem to be suggesting. You can support someone to get the help they need and also put in healthy boundaries at the same time. If it were me, I'd be talking to her and seeing if I could find out what was behind the behaviour in a supportive manner BUT, equally, I would make it very clear that I wouldnt be hosting someone who was consistently rude to me either. Why should I put up with that in my own home? I think it sets a very dangerous precedent to accept poor behaviour on the basis of someone being upset because where do you draw the line with that?

Just wanted to say that my dd has all those qualities, and is still neurodovergent. Indeed, her worst behaviour is reserved for those she feels safe around, too. She masks the rest of the time.

I don't actually think your niece is ND. I think she and your sister have had a lot to deal with, which is taking its toll. You sound like an amazing aunt/ sister, you've been so protective of them both on this thread. They're fortunate to have you in their corner. I'm sure you will make the right decision and I hope that things improve for you all.

Yes, but I do also know women that (verbally) treat their husbands or partners like absolute shit because they were allowed to do it as teenagers and taught that everyone who loves you will do so unconditionally.

Why have you quoted me?

You are going to cave and have her. So do it. It's entirely your choice. I wouldn't but then I wouldn't have followed up with texting her either after she was so rude to you. You might think your sister is a great parent and fortunately you come from a family where slapping isn't part of behaviour management. What is part of behaviour management in your family exactly? Whatever it is clearly isn't working!

This is beyond normal teenage moodiness and both your sister and you (especially you) are utterly daft for putting up with it. I'd take a deep look at why you are letting her treat you like shit, put her being your niece to one side and would you really let anyone else treat you this way. I really think it is beyond damaging to think that it's ok for someone to treat you like shit just because they have a lot going on. There should be no excuses for that type of behaviour.

That most certainly is not normal teen behaviour.
It is absolutely appalling.
She ruined Christmas day.
That is not normal.
I wouldn't dream of having her friend again.
It was uncomfortable for her and you.
I would consider the Edinburgh option only because of your sisters diagnosis.
If your sister is unwell and is continuing to have to deal with that sort of behaviour then that is shocking.
You sound like a very generous aunt but the truth is some nice children morph into deeply unpleasant unlikely teens.
Some emerge from it, some don't.
You are not a emotional punching bag for your niece.
As for gifts, I would be spending a £5 on her going forward and I would be frugal in Edinburgh.
She has endured hardship from her fathers behaviour but her ongoing abuse of those around her being tolerated does her no favours in the long run.

This child has more or less been abandoned by her father, she is now possibly thinking her mother won't be around much longer and people are questioning her behaviour 🤦‍♀️
She deserves all the love & support she can get until she gets through this phase. A gentle hug OP along with letting her know it's understandable she is angry and upset but you'll always be there for her when needed.

The behaviour isn’t acceptable and isn’t that she is a teenager. I’m interested to know what has happened since? Has she apologised and tried to make amends? Have you seen them since?

I really don’t think you are equipped to manage an angry pointedly misbehaving teen in the middle of Edinburgh festival or indeed where there are clubs and pubs for her to run amok through. It sounds like a really silly plan.

Why don’t you change the whole set up now dd is older? Do NOT offer to be responsible for two teenage girls in a large city because it doesn’t sound like you could keep them safe. Start to rebuild by hoping to visit and see how things go.

Sure, teens are about pushing the boundaries but an important life lesson is that you can break them to the point there's no going back. Tell your sister she isn't going back to your house until you receive a sincere apology for her behaviour towards you.

I actually think the whole situation is really sad….
OP has had a wonderful relationship with DN until this year…. I sounds like she is really angry about something and OP has become her whipping boy…
I wonder what’s happened…
I wonder if it’s her father in any way?
I don’t think her mum is the issue. She sounds like she’s tried her best but DN is angry and a teenager.
Personally, I would reach out to DN one more time. I would email or txt her so you have a record… tell her that August is approaching and normally you would be looking forward to spending time together. But last year made you feel very sad and incredibly hurt. You did everything to make her and her friend welcome and enjoy their stay but she really wasn’t very nice. You don’t understand why she is lashing out at you, and would be very happy to sit down and talk about it. You hate seeing her like this as you’ve always been so very close. If she would like to come and stay in august she would be very welcome, but she would have to come alone this year.
That keeps the door open without rewarding her bad behaviour.

She's not a child and this is delusional.

Yeah, hug her and say you understand she threw your gift back in your face, is generally ungrateful, hasn't apologised for being rude or even tried to talk to you since.

That makes sense.