Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day…
Sounds like DS wants to offload her difficult daughter for a few days.

I feel like there has to be something going on with her to act like that. Whether it's plain bad parenting or something emotional, it's not normal.

That doesn't mean you put up with awful behaviour, but I think it would be helpful to tell her directly (maybe via text so she can read it and think), something like I love you and have always enjoyed out relationship and want it to continue, but your behaviour has been so unreasonable and unpleasant in recent years that I can't have you to visit right now as your actions are so upsetting. Id love to have a real conversation about it if you are willing.

Something like that. Criticise the behaviour, set your boundaries that work for you, but let her know you're still there if she can make an effort to apologise and improve..

I'm all for support of teens going through tough times but I would draw the line at extending an invitation this summer to host someone who had been so rude during the last stay and about the Christmas present and who hadn't apologised or even responded to messages since. I'm sorry but there's got to be a limit. I'd be asking your sister whether it's her who wants your niece to come or your niece. If your niece wants to come, you're open to a conversation, you want to be understanding, but there's got to be an apology and an agreement about what behaviour is OK going forward. I mean, we're talking about you having her in your house for 4 days and spending loads of cash on her. The odd lapse in behaviour is one thing but she's old enough to understand that even close relatives are not going to want to put themselves out for her to that extent if she can't muster up basic gratitude. You're not her mother and your relationship with her does not have to be unconditional.

Stop accepting this behaviour now.

I think you should be really clear with your niece and tell her due to her behaviour last summer and at Christmas you don’t wish to host her this summer. At 16 she does know what she’s doing and she also knows how she’s treating you is wrong but if she’s allowed to get away with it then she will lack any respect for you.

I have read through all your posts OP. I would have her but set some clear rules about behaviour. If she breaches them, home she goes. No friend this year.

I would not go to Edinburgh as it is too much of a risk. Maybe a night in Brighton, agreed somewhere new might help. 'Love Bomb her'. Focus on her and her future.

Good luck, keep us updated!

@valsays

I'm sitting on the fence so hard I have splinters in my arse.

On one hand I'd say never again. DN needs to learn that behaviour has consequences, period. I'm sorry for her mum, but even though she takes her DD to account, her statement that 'it's just teen behaviour, get used to it' shows that she does think it's normal, at least to some extent. DN needs more counseling and it probably wouldn't hurt for DS to have some, too.

On the other hand, I get that DN has been through terrible emotional pain and may be acting out. And so often children (of all ages) pick the people they love to act out against. We are their 'soft place to land'. We are 'safe'. So I can see why you wouldn't want to make her feel that she's lost you, even if 'losing you' was her own fault.

I think I'd tell DS that if she wants me to have DN then there will need to be a discussion between you and DN in which you both communicate. Just you and DN, her mother shouldn't be part of it. You need to be able to tell her how her behaviour made you feel and she needs to sincerely apologize for it. I'd tell DS that if that doesn't happen then you will tell DN why you won't be hosting her. And if she does apologize, you and she can make plans together. But you need to make it clear to her AND her mother that if she repeats any of the negative behaviours you will be sending her/taking her home immediately.

Again, actions have consequences. And just because someone is hurting or has been through a bad time is no reason why they shouldn't face those consequences.

For a minute there I thought I was the only one who thought it is despicable to be calling a troubled teen ‘a horrible cow’ or ‘wretch’.
I really hope these Posters don’t use this type of language to their family……….
i have never seen so many judgemental people on 1 thread. Some of you are so quick to disown flesh and blood. This is a troubled young girl who needs the love of her family. She has already been abandoned by the 1 person who is supposed to protect her. Why don’t you all just think about that for a moment. Her mother has been diagnosed with cancer this is a vulnerable child but all you see is a brat really?!? As mothers ourselves is that how we show empathy? She hasn’t committed a crime for gods sake. Please OP @valsays don't give up on your niece, she needs you more than you know. Go & talk to her 1:1, ask her about xmas & why she has not been in contact & ask her why she is so angry. That will be the time you are going to have to be blunt about how she behaves with her mother……
You are going to have to be the no nonsense Aunt she needs. She isn’t going to speak to your sister because of her diagnosis and not wanting to upset her. Deep down she is a good kid but she needs help right now. Offer up Edinburgh but don’t mention the fest. That way you aren’t dangling a carrot but you are offering her space and somewhere where she can just sit & think. Nothing is impossible Op x

If you’ve read all the op’s posts you will see her poor behaviour precedes her mum’s cancer diagnosis.

Some people just aren’t very nice, regardless of their parents and wider families best efforts.

This couldn’t be more clear, @valsays—
Both your niece and your sister need to comprehend that actions have consequences.
How on God’s Green Earth could you justify punishing yourself with another visit from a disrespectful, rude, crude and insensitive child?
Because I can’t think of a single solitary
justification.

Actions have consequences. Your N has behaved appalling on more than one occasion but the adults around her make excuses & pander to her.
Life isn’t always what we want . It’s sad about her Dad but lots of people come from divorced families & aren’t obnoxious.

I certainly wouldn’t host her this year. Let her cool her heels . Be there for her but don’t run after her , there’s a thin line between being a supportive influence and being a mug.

Spending £300 on a present is a terrible idea , she doesn’t appreciate it .
Definetly spend less in the future, save some money instead if you wish
Hopefully with maturity she will value people and money.

As a mother and aunt, this is awful.

You are obviously close to DN. So I would be messaging her and telling her how awful her behaviour and attitude is and as a result you will not be hosting her this August. I would also be telling her if she didn't sort out her attendance she will be very lonely in life

If you don't tell them, they will carry on as they are

Obviously you don't have her to stay.

But if I was you I would have spent the last 2 or 3 years trying to work out what was going on with her. Just hormones or something else? Either way she needs help, and some boundaries from her aunt, firmly but lovingly applied might be a good start.

OP in the actual title of her thread: really dislikes DN, doesn't want to have her to stay

Thread agrees, awful behaviour, don't have her to stay!

OP is offended by many calling DN (whose behaviour she has described in detail) a brat. Now working on ways to be even more of an accomodating rich doormat for DN she really dislikes and doesn't want to have stay...

OP YOU BOUGHT HER A GIFT
'Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else'

What was the consequence of this?

Seemed aimed to hurt.

You are definitely not being unreasonable. It is not your job to put up with her shitty behaviour.

If she can’t speak to you with respect and apologise for her behaviour there is no way you should be expected to carry on with this tradition.

Stop contacting her and def don’t have the brat over. Her mother needs to have some strong words with her, this is not typical teenage behaviour, it’s spoilt and brattish.

You sound like a lovely aunt xx

Haven't read the whole thread, and I don't know how much your sister deserves it, but would you take your niece for the sole reason to give your sister a break? Put out ground rules of expectations for the visit, don't organise special things that won't be appreciated etc. and don't spend anywhere close to 1000 pounds. She is 15 years old, hand her 20 pounds each morning and let her know she is free to entertain herself and what time you expect her home.

I think it is totally unfair to compare traumatic events and I say this as someone, who lost my dad when he was the same age as this girl and within weeks of diagnosis to death.

In a way it’s worse for her. My dad didn’t choose to abandon me by dying. This girl’s dad did. That is hugely traumatic. On top of this, she has an ill mum, diagnosed with cancer, who isn’t parenting her effectively.

I think you should put your anger to one side op. She’s testing you and perhaps embarrassed by her out of control behaviour. If you want to have a good relationship with her, I would try again. I’d write her a physical letter and tell her you love her and you’re upset by her behaviour. You want the two of you to try again and would love her to join you for a trip to Scotland.

This is in no way a reward. She needs careful handling and love. Teens can be so hard to love. If things don’t work out or if she’s rude on the trip, you can give her a choice to go home or to go off for a while alone. Do remember that teens often need time alone and she may spend quite a lot of the time cooped up in your friend’s house during the day or sleeping. That won’t mean you’re failing her or that she’s being insolent. You only need to spend some time looking at the threads of despairing parents, whose teens hardly leave the room on holiday at this age, yet surprisingly seem to have enjoyed their time away.

The bonus with being on neutral turf is that everything will be new for both of you and you’ll have the back up of your social worker friend so perhaps you can do a little digging and help her through this difficult time.

@valsays

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

The fact that your sister puts up with this disgraceful behaviour is nothing to do with you. You have your own standards of behaviour and your own boundaries, which do not include putting up with aggressive, ungrateful behaviour - especially the way she behaved towards you at Christmas. The words she used towards you were designed to hurt you and she's shown no signs of good manners since I would certainly not be putting myself out and spending a huge amount of time and money on someone, whatever their age, who treats me like dirt.

Your sister can do what she wants - you don't have to put up with such aggression. Draw those boundary lines both for your niece and your sister (who's probably looking forward to a few days of peace without her daughter) and stick to them. 🌹

Not a chance would I have her!

I was a nightmare teen, and when I read the first half I thought sounds just like I was, but no, she sounds awful. I might have tried to convince my aunt to let me go clubbing at 14 but that's where the similarity ends.

She's so rude, I wouldn't have her over the door. Don't do it.

It's really not how all teens are.

I think that approach is fair enough. You are clearly a close family, current issues with Bruce aside. Nevertheless, I don’t think your DS should be pressurising you to have DN this year. It sounds like DN might not want to come and might even resent being required to come. But, even if there is a deeper level on which she does want to come, she certainly isn’t on a place to accept the invitation graciously and be delightful company for you. Missing out this year and being told that the invitation is there for when she starts treating you with the love you deserve will be better for her in the long run. There need to be consequences that focus her mind and make her realise that she can’t treat people the way she has been and get away with it. Your sister can leave a 16 year old unaccompanied for a night or two if she wants to get away. Your Mum could stay in the house or host her granddaughter and your sister could visit you for a change. It sounds like she could do with it.

*niece not Bruce!!!

This is very true. My dd has just taken her GCSEs and she crumbled this year due to not coping with her medical condition. She now has anorexia.

No, this is not normal behaviour for a teen. Sass maybe, but this is meaness. You are under no obligation to have her over - I wouldn't. Set boundaries for yourself and say no. It sounds like your nice is very unhappy with her life. Maybe she needs counselling?

Late to this thread, and only read your posts OP, but wow, you are brilliant! A really thoughtful, empathetic, insightful woman.

I really feel for your DN. My first thoughts are that she has a deep fear of rejection and abandonment and so is subconsciously pushing you all away first so that she can’t be hurt like that again. You described her friend as lovely, and I wonder if seeing you getting on with and liking her friend also sparked fears in DN of you liking her friend over her, due to her Dad choosing his OW over her. And that sparked rejection fears that caused her to reject you first through her behaviour.

Shes only a kid, a kid who’s learnt people you love and rely on will choose to leave you for someone they like more. That has to fuck with your head. I had a friend at uni whose Mum died when she was a child. Looking back she was sub clinical anorexic. She told me once that she believed if she wasn’t thin enough, the people she loved would leave her. Abandonment runs deep.

Missing out this year and being told that the invitation is there for when she starts treating you with the love you deserve will be better for her in the long run

Just read up and read this. This is terrible, cruel advice. Telling a child who has fears of rejection that she will be rejected until she can ‘love’ well enough is not just cruel, but will fuck her up even more. I can’t imagine the sort of terrible relationships with awful men she will get into if she internalizes the message of this action ( actually, I can).