Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

Soon your DN will be out into the big wide world, and people won't be as kind to her as you or her mum.

The sooner she learns she cannot speak to people that way (even though her father sounds awful for abandoning her) the better it is for her in the long-run. Otherwise she'll have a rude awakening when people don't want to be her friend or she can't have relationships.

In the absence of a second parent for DN, it seems your sister is struggling and therefore using you to parent in place of her Ex, - expecting you to absorb the dramas and lack of manners from her teen DD without complaint.

I think it would be better if you put your sister straight and told her that if you were her parent, out of love, you wouldn’t have let her get away with her conduct at Christmas without a proper apology and consequences. But you simply aren’t prepared to take on the parenting of her DD as she isn’t your responsibility and therefore your intervention would likely not be received well at all and would be unsuccessful, maybe even deepening the family rift.

Suggest to your DS that you feel its best fir DN to give it a break this August but you will happily resume aunty duty at Christmas if your DN decides she wants to start again and actually have a decent more mature relationship with you.

Gosh, after the first few sentences I was coming on to say “don’t give up, she may just need better examples” but after reading the remainder of your first post the answer is NO! - it’s way beyond your responsibility to sort this. The most I’d do is a day trip and say you’ll consider more when she can show she can behave herself!!!!

I'm afraid she'd never darken my door again unless there was a total 180 degree turn around in behaviour.
And l wouldn't be buying her any more presents, either. The ungrateful mare.
I've got grown up stepsons, my cousin and friends have (grown up now) children, and not once have any of them ever behaved like that.
Your sister needs to take some responsibility and start parenting.

no way would she be staying with me

It sounds like your niece is really quite troubled at the moment and needs someone who is understanding but is also willing to put in boundaries. It sounds like you and your sister are both trying your best to be supportive but your niece is not responding at the moment.

I don't think having her and a friend to stay sounds like a good idea given what happened about the present but it sounds like reaching out to her in some way might be good but not sure what the solution is.

Obviously a difficult teenager more than the average. I would said no and as others said explain that actions have consequences. Your sister must be going through hell with that girl. However, you do not have to accept that behaviour. It is your summer and you deserve to enjoy it.

You sound like an amazing sister and aunt.

I haven’t read all the posts but you clearly get that she has stuff going on that is hurting her and your sister also has so much crap going on.

I don’t know what the answer is, but I like the sound of the Edinburgh trip.

if you can bridge a gap / show her she can’t push you away, that you’ll love her no matter what, then you are the sister and aunt that most people could only dream of having.

Keep being you :)

I think @valsays both yourself and your sister need to be honest with yourselves that this is not remotely typical teen behaviour.
Nor is her hateful behaviour excusable simply because her parents have separated.

Your sister has confirmed that her daughter's behaviour is persistently awful, thus it's incredibly naive to think a different location will make a jot of difference (the phrase band aids don't fix bullet holes springs to mind). And no, I wouldn't dream of imposing her on family friends.

She's 16, a young adult, so it's too late for anyone to give you advice on discipline or the like. You've saw the depth of deterioration just a couple of teenage years can bring, and it'll be even more marked in the next couple of years. Once she's 18 and legally able to drink and do whatever the fuck she likes, you'll all be longing for the halcyon days where wondering whether to give her a nice holiday or not was the foremost quandary.

No, having that sort of rudeness and abuse is not just a part of dealing with teens. Even if it is just a part of dealing with your niece, it doesn't mean you have to do it. Unfortunately your sister is going to have to sort out her daughter and get it through to her that she has to be polite if she wants to be invited out anywhere and given presents. Perhaps this might begin that process.

That's because she is a spoiled brat and an entitled madam. But you keep taking her shit OP and indulge her with trips and festivals. Keep finding excuses for her, such as the absent dad or mum's cancer.
Many children/teens have similar or worse issues, they still don't act as vile and disgusting as your niece. And bad things in her life do not give her the licence to act that way, neither "make" her that way. But she'll get a shocker and learn her lessons soon enough from "the real world" where she won't be tolerated.

No way would I have bought her a gift let alone a £300 gift after she’d told me to fuck off on the previous visit. She wouldn’t be staying at mine again after that alone.

and throwing a gift back at me and telling me it was shit, no way would she be staying with me, why would you put up with that?

There’s also no way I’d spend 1k on her visiting me either.

its not normal behaviour for a teen, no.

No don’t. You won’t end up making anyone happy, least of all yourself. You have done your bit, and you should tell your sister you are changing the plan and book a holiday for yourself. Otherwise you are just going to be ground down. Your niece is 16. That is old enough to organize a few things with friends over the summer.

Absolutely do not host her this year - if she truly thinks she can come and stay with you after what has happened, it shows what a terrible human being she is. I think she needs something fairly drastic like this (just for this summer) for her to see how much it has hurt you and maybe she will process it and come to a realisation that her behaviour is not fair on those around her.

No one other than a 4 year old would throw a gift back at a family member and I honestly don't know what sort of teenager would swear back at their aunt for no reason.

I can see the comments on the divorce etc and that might be part of it. Alternatively, is there a large pay disparity between you and your DS and how far away does she live? I'm wondering if living in London and also paying for her and her friend to do stuff is actually triggering anger in her as she sort of feels like she can't or doesn't get the same treatment at home? Also do you have a family? Could that be upsetting for her I wonder?

You’re trying too hard, step away and stick to your boundaries.

Bloody hell, OP, I think you’re being unfairly dunked on here.

it sounds like you actually have a lovely relationship with your DN, and have done so well by your DS. Your DN is 16. The hormones are running WILD at that point.

As crappy as it is for you, are you able to put up with the usual visit for the next year or two, for the sake of maintaining a good relationship with your DN? It sounds like she really needs you and your DS in her life, even if that’s hell on both of you at this point.

You do not need to be taking her out on daily excursions at this age, just let her mooch, give her the WiFi password, watch some Netflix, maybe get some street food from wherever is cool in London at that point. Let her have some downtime but be clear about it from the start.

😬 I have a teenager, no she doesn't act that way, wouldn't get away with it.
She wouldn't be staying with me, that's for sure

OP you sound like an amazing auntie and this is a tough one.

Whatever is going on and triggering this behaviour is not your fault and she is old enough to understand that she is being deliberately hurtful. Sometimes space is what is needed. And certainly, before coming to stay again, she needs to actually be communicating with you on some level.

So in your shoes I’d be saying no to a visit this year, not just because of your DN previous behaviour but also this “DN wanted to go clubbing”.

This is a red flag to me. I’m guessing that she usually lives somewhere that clubbing isn’t really a thing. My concern would be that you’d have her abscond into London to try to do just that with or without friend in tow, and given she’s not responding to you that could quickly turn into a nightmare.

Chin up, you’re a great aunt and sister.

I wouldn't like to have her to stay...aside from everything else she might try to run off to nightclubs now she's a couple of years older.

Would it be feasible to meet up for a day out? Have lunch, her + friend could go to an event (there would be more music on this time of year) and you could browse and have a coffee. Is friend definitely coming this year? Apologies if I missed it.

I absolutely wouldn't. At minimum I would expect an apology for all that, and I don't think you'd be morally obliged to host her even if she did apologise. I'd say to your sister that DN can't want to come and stay given that she's ignored you and your messages ever since, and obviously you don't want to host anyone, including family, who won't talk to you.

I’m very surprised at the amount of posters on this thread who would put up with their niece throwing a Christmas present at them and telling them they are “shit at buying Christmas presents as everything else.” The Op’s nieces behaviour is awful, yet this is minimised by (a) her father leaving and (b) her sisters cancer diagnosis. While I appreciate both these things can have a huge impact on children this behaviour is NOT acceptable. The OP also spends £1000 for a week long stay every year and their niece doesn’t contact them since Christmas after her spending £300 on a gift? If any of my sisters/brothers were allowing my nieces or nephews to speak to any family member like this I’d be having a firm word. Someone seriously needs give the sister a firm boot up the arse for allowing this behaviour. The entitlement of the niece and sister here is outrageous and perhaps reigning back on the amount spent would make a huge difference. Money can’t buy manners or appropriate behaviour, boundaries and effective parenting cost nothing.

I think folk should make allowances for not very good behaviour in teens. But this girls behaviour is way beyond anything remotely acceptable. You are quite within your rights to refuse the visit altogether. In fact you should. If you don't she will never learn.

You sound like an absolutely wonderful aunt, OP.

Totally this. And if DD says she has to put up with her behavior just say well I'm not her mum. Don't give in . Promise us

If you do decide to have her stay can the rules and boundaries be agreed to before she arrives? So no night clubbing and only sign up to activities she says she wants to do? And also clearly state that should it all become a nightmare that you will terminate the trip and take her back home?

I suspect that she needs you to keep loving her but that doesn't mean you need to lavish her with expensive gifts or put up with abuse She may be testing just how solid you are (given her world is shakey right now) or she may have created a teen fantasy of going clubbing and is angry you shut shut it down

If you had a lovely time in the past it will likely return to that in the future once she's past peak teen.