Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

Do you even know if your DN wants to stay? It is all very well your DS asking and assuming she will visit you as normal but at 16 your DN will have her own opinions and may not want to come. If she is forced into it the visit will be horrible for you and DN and damage the already difficult relationship between your DS and her DD and won't improve your relationship with her. Maybe it is to do with feeling abandoned by her father, maybe hormones or difficulties in school even if on the surface she seems to be doing fine. I would send your DN a text asking what she wants to do and if she says she doesn't want to come respect that.

If she comes include her in planning the visit. Sounds like she is being treated like a much younger child in being sent away by your DS to give her a break. Yes her behaviour about the present was awful so I would not be giving her expensive gifts again.

I really hope OP comes back & sees your post. It's perfect

This child behaved appallingly - entitled brat (I could say more!). And, sorry, but spending £300 on a present for her is outrageous. You have to toughen up, stop being so lovely.

No way OP. She's a brat and she needs to learn some manners. Stick to your guns.

I agree that it is not okay for this 15 year old to swear at her aunt and she needs clear boundaries and expectations around this going forward.

If it is not okay for this 15 year old to say rude things to her aunt, then how is it okay for (I assume) some adults to refer to this 15 year old child as a “brat”, a “horrible cow” and a “wretch”?

I would have your DN over for the few days but l would not have her friend too.
maybe she will open up more, maybe not. It will help your DS who has a lot on.
As much as i appreciate your DN has had a tough time and is lashing out she also needs to know this behaviour is just not on. She is no longer a toddler but a young lady. I would have her over for a few nights in the hope you can bridge the gaps. Hopefully in time she will see what she is doing is just not on
.
by the way what a lovely aunt you are. She is lucky to have you

If it is not okay for this 15 year old to say rude things to her aunt, then how is it okay for (I assume) some adults to refer to this 15 year old child as a “brat”, a “horrible cow” and a “wretch”?

Because the poor aunt had those things said directly to her. Whereas the rude niece in question will be blissfully unaware.

@MrsTerryPratchett , your posts on this thread are fantastic. If you have teens, they are very lucky to have you.

This girl sounds desperately unhappy 😞

As pp have said, does your niece even want to come and stay with you?

It seems that you want to continue a relationship despite her behaviour and no apology, so if you go ahead with her coming to stay then maybe suggest that it would be on the condition that there is no friend accompanying her, and you’ll be doing very low key/low cost things. Give her a choice of particular things to do, nothing else. If she wants to go somewhere expensive then she can fund it herself. She may be going through a hard time but it’s no excuse for rude, ungrateful behaviour with no consequences.

As for Christmas it would be £20 in a card only. Absolutely no one should ever throw a gift back in your face and think that is appropriate behaviour and excusable because of xyz.

While your DN sounds incredibly ungrateful it's really irrelevant what anyone says on MN your choices are you do as you want and don't look after your DN.
Or..
You do as your DSis wants you to do and continue with the "tradition".

IMO if you do continue letting your DN stay with you you'll have to be open to letting her treat you with such disrespect because, although you say your DSis tells her off its clear that DN isn't listening as her bad behaviour and lack of respect towards you continues, by having her stay you know pretty much what may happen so in part you're accepting you're ok with how she's treating you.

The only way to let both DSis and DN know that you're fed up with it is by sticking to your guns, saying no and more importantly meaning it.

Awww...I really feel for you in this situation.

Pretty much everyone on this thread has said what you yourself must feel - i.e. tell your sister and niece to forget about it, at least for this year.

Totally understandable.

But....it would be worth looking at it a bit differently. I dunno, maybe the girls are a little bit older now - they won't need to be with you absolutely all the time, that would help.

Perhaps explain to your sister that your niece's friend felt awkward - get her to prep the girls beforehand just so she absolutely knows how hurt your feelings were.

Sometimes youngsters just don't know..it might be worth emphasising how upsetting it was for you.

I dunno...just another angle ...it would be lovely to have a family tradition continue - imagine how ace it'll be in a few years.

Very difficult situation though - I wouldn't blame you if you said no; at least for this year...

"Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300."

Full me once, shame on you. Full me twice...

"Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge."

If this is so, why not just give DN £1K to stay away? Win-win!

"She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?"

Ask her to point out the clause in the "contract" you signed as her slave which shows this.

But nobody is saying those things to the 15yo. She'll never know.

Okay, so if the niece had been writing rude stuff down about her aunt in a diary which was discovered, rather than expressing it in words, that would be different? Would that make her less of a “cow”?

Edinburgh sounds like a good call as long as friend us fully prepped about angry rude teen

It's really ironic that grown adults are incapable of maturely discussing a child's behaviour without resorting to childish and disrespectful insults towards that child. This poor kid has been through a lot by the sounds of it. She's not a 'brat' she's probably hurting and needs a great deal of emotional support.

That said, I don't think that the answer is to pander to this OP. She is at a crucial stage of her transition to adulthood and now more than ever she needs clear boundaries and clear consequences to her choices.

I wouldn't spend any more money on dn and I'd make it clear to her that this is because she didn't seem to like your treats and it made you very upset. I would make it clear to her that you're always up for spending time with her and help her with any problems but that you expect respect in return. Until you get respect you won't be spending money on her for a start. Try and leave the door open as best you can as she will hopefully mature over the next few years and having a loving aunt might make all the difference

You sound lovely OP and it's obvious you really care for this child and your ds.

Such a hard situation. I'm wondering if it is wrapped up in the hurt she must feel about her dad leaving - almost pushing you to abandon her too, or to see at what point you too will walk out of her life. Maybe on a subconscious level so she is not even aware of what she is doing or why. I don't know!

I think your idea of a change of scene and going to Edinburgh is a good one particularly as you genuinely want to go. She will feel that - that your excitement/ interest are genuine and you are not enduring her visit and hosting her out of a sense of obligation. You sound like a lovely aunty!

@valsays
Hell no!
I have teens, if either of them behaved like that I'd be mortified.
YADNBU,, don't be giving in and hosting again.

Channel zammo. "Just say no"

I think someone needs to learn that actions have consequences.

15/16 is often the age when MH problems begin to manifest. In your DN's case possibly exacerbated by an unstable history and massive insecurity.

I think I'd forget spending money on expensive gifts and experiences and have her assessed by an adolescent specialist psychiatrist. It may not be a diagnosable MH issue but she certainly sounds like she needs pointing in the direction of the right specialist therapist and I think you need professional advice in relation to that.

Girls of your dn's age have often masked extremely well until they reach GCSE age and pressures.

OP you seem lovely and I hope you guys can resolve this. It's actually quite a sad situation for all of you. I wish I had the answer.

I certainly would not host her again though, while she still acts like she's done nothing wrong. I suspect you need to hash it our somehow... or maybe she could just come stay with you a weekend so it's not so awkward.

Fuck, that. Stand up for yourself. Say no way. DN can come grovelling back when she's 23 and stopped being a twat. And shame on your sister for not pulling her up.

I wish I’d had an aunt (or uncle) who cared as much about me as you do for your DN!

What a horrible, ungrateful brat. Write her off, she doesn’t deserve any kindness. Sounds like her mother isn’t much better.

Even if she apologised, I wouldn't have her stay again.