Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

I had a difficult teenager. Really really difficult but she would never, ever have behaved like that.

No way should you have her to stay

I think though that it's hard not to think of your DN like that after what you have told us. I don't think many teens or even children would be that rude about a fully funded trip WITH a friend or an expensive gift if they weren't already 'spoilt' in some way. She is used to getting what she wants regardless of what she does. Yes she may need emotional support but at this point I don't think that needs to be in the form of you paying for her to go away. Clearly that did not work the last time she stayed with you.

She is having a hard time which of course will affect her. However it is not normal teen behaviour and although DS may have sanctions, they are clearly not working. This could be that they aren't really enforced properly/consistently or DN really may not care.

In my previous post (lost among many) I agreed that it is a really tough situation considering everything DN & DS are going through. This does not mean that you have to put up with it.

Her loosing out on her yearly trip with you is sad, but if you agree too readily (even going to Edinburgh) it really isn't teaching her anything about how hurtful her behaviour is. Coupled with the fact that she hasn't apologised nor been in touch just shows (in my opinion) that she can get away with anything or she is currently beyond caring. She is 16 so definitely old enough to know better.

I really think that it's important for your DS & especially DN to understand how you feel and I don't think you should be making such a quick decision about booking to take her to Edinburgh, when atm the likelyhood is that she will just throw it back in your face. I would also try regular face-to-face or telephone contact with DN before making your decision, to see how she is.

If you do decide to take her I would also be upfront and tell DN that if she is disrespectful like that again, that will be the last time you let her stay/take her away.

I agree ask the DN what she wants to do? She's 16. She should decide.

I think this is how she might be feeling inside, like a “nasty little cow”. She might be thinking things about herself that are way worse than what she is being described as on this thread (our inner critical voices are often far nastier than what other people say about us).

Have other people here never taken out feelings of stress, upset and abandonment on the very people they love the most? I know I have.

Yes the behaviour is not okay and there need to be boundaries, but her feelings are valid. Her bad behaviour does not make her a bad person, a “brat” or a “cow”. My guess is she is feeling terrible and this is being acted out towards her aunt; she’s trying to push and push and show just how awful she believes she is at the moment.

That's terrible behaviour from her. I have teens they can be difficult but that's extreme. I would not be playing host to anyone who treated me like that.

what you allow will continue. Unless and until dn approaches you with accountability and apology- cancel all treats. tell her you can ruin your own day,thankyou.

Entitled little toad

If you’re concerned about her or your future relationship then do contact her again by letter or email.

But she hasn’t apologised for being unbelievably rude or even spoken to you since Christmas, so spending a week of annual leave and £1,000 on her eight months later makes no sense and your sister’s expectation here is crazy.

16 is old enough to learn about choices and consequences. She insulted you and threw a £300 gift in your face. Then shut you out of her life. That doesn’t get rewarded with a holiday and theatre trips.

I have two teens and they would never act this way. They would be polite and grateful. This is really terrible behaviour and if it were me I would absolutely refuse. Bad behaviour should never be rewarded

I've not hit the teen stage with my kids yet so I might be totally off but I don't think it's your job to punish her for something that happened 6 months ago. I also don't think you trying to do so would actually do anything but further deepen whatever is going on with your niece. Have you text her and asked her if she still wants to come this summer?
If she does and your friends offer was genuine I'd try use it as a chance to reconnect and prove you are a safe space but not a punching bag. Set very clear boundaries from the beginning, before you leave, you love her and want to spend time together but you are not here for her to lash out with, you will always be there if she wants to talk or have a shoulder to cry on but if she tries to hurt you she goes straight home and you won't be having her to stay again. Type it as gently as you can and send it to her before the trip and ask that she agrees and your DS agrees too.
I'm a single parent and I understand why your DS is so desperate for the time off and if you can give her this break that would be amazing.
Is your DN still in counselling? if not it might be something to revisit.

You sound like a lovely aunt. I'd have her come to stay or take her to away (if you're already spending £1k you could actually save some money and have a holiday).

But, get your niece to plan / agree with the itinerary for the trip. Give her a budget, some suggestions in advance and you book everything. Make it clear if she doesn't get involved in planning there will be no plans.

Don't have the friend come too, give her your full attention.

My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens.

She might have to, no one else does. Good luck to you if you decide to try. Not sure what she’s going to learn, except that she can do exactly as she pleases, apparently with no consequences

Wize words

I'd say as x has refused to reply or acknowledge me over the last x months and the last time we spoke was when she threw a £300 gift back at me I'm afraid I don't feel up to hosting her until she's able to be civil and have a conversation with me her friend y was really upset at the way she behaved last time.
Obviously I'm not cutting her off and will invest the money I would have spent for her uni fees or whatever but I feel it's best to start with a short afternoon visit and see how that goes.

I’m a secondary school teacher so I see a lot of teen behaviour. Your sister is kidding herself if she thinks the way her daughter acted towards you is normal teenage behaviour. It’s the kids who are in the minority who can behave like that, certainly not the majority. I would stand your ground, this girl needs to realise actions have consequences.

I would cancelled.

Make yourself unavailable for any visit and if your DSis want a rest she can send her on a summer camp.

What a horrible girl. Your dsis should be ashamed of her.

I understand that you feel sorry for your niece, and for your sister, due to the various challenges they are facing, but I still believe that you would be doing your niece more harm than good if you were to host her again this summer. She really does need to learn that actions have consequences. You are not withdrawing your love, and you should tell her this, but she needs to see that she cannot behave this badly and just get away with it. I think it is precisely because you do love her that you should understand the need to teach her this lesson. Her mother has lost sight of what is normal and could also do with your help recognising that her daughter’s behaviour is beyond the pale. They may well both decide that you are the “baddie” in this situation, but you will know that you are acting for their own good. Stay strong xxx

No, parents should have a broadly positive story about their own children, while parenting to elicit the best behaviour.

If people on this thread are ashamed of their children, think of children as toads, brats and cows, think we should punish and hurt to teach them right, they are shit parents. No doubt about it and your children will be discussing you in therapy later.

Good parenting is empathy, kindness and positivity, while having good boundaries, and allowing immediate natural consequences. Understanding that conflict is unexpressed need and it's your job to identify the need and help meet it. You know, actual effective parenting.

This girl was abandoned by one parent and has another with cancer. If I had a sick parent and a no contact one I'd be angry, and I'm not a young teenager.

I would take her but maybe engineer the trip to be a little different from her expectations. Eg you take her for brekkie, but it happens to be at a food project or similar.
You give her a budget for the supermarket and give her the responsibility of cooking you all a nice dinner.
Maybe have her leave you with an idea of her own financial privilege , and the sense of worth that can come from doing something for the greater good.
I only say this as parent of a few teens, one v tricky. It really does take a village and sometimes teens honestly do respond to small interventions. Without doubt her past behaviour has been disgraceful, but it sounds like you’re a useful, thoughtful family member with the capacity to help with a tricky teen . Your sister has probably never needed you more, and her own strategy obvs isn’t effective.

Tell them both to get to fuck

“Horrible” behaviour doesn’t make her a “horrible girl”, although she probably thinks she is. If she thinks her mum and aunt also think she is horrible and shameful, this is going to make things much worse as she will probably try to prove that she is the most “horrible girl” there is. I think (and it’s a really hard balance to get right) she needs boundaries and love and understanding about the feelings underlying the behaviour

This is what I was going to suggest. Maybe just have your niece on her own. She may even open up to you if it’s just the two of you??

Has anyone asked DN? Perhaps asking her directly if she wants a trip with you, and saying honestly that she didn't seem to enjoy herself last time (and that you didn't enjoy having her) would open up some communication. My guess is that as a typically egocentric teen it won't have crossed her mind that you were hurt by her behaviour.

If she does want to continue the tradition you could negotiate some ground rules about speaking politely to each other etc. If she can't manage that, the trip ends early as she clearly doesn't want to be there.

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. No one should be allowed to get away with treating someone as badly as this. I have a sister much younger than me and seeing her go through the teens stage out me right off her for a long time!