Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

From what you've said you should not feel obliged to have her. Don't know why DS thinks this is unreasonable. Could she go on some other sort of break. PGL??

How about you go and stay at DS and stay there with DN.

DS goes away and chills.

This is what I’m hearing.

There is a teenage girl (difficult time of life!) whose mum has been diagnosed with cancer. Her father has left her and her mother and moved to a different country. She is functioning at school and with friendships. The OP has been like a mother figure to her; being there when things were incredibly tough. Now she’s responding with rage and rejection to every act of kindness and generosity the OP is offering her.

Yes, her behaviour is not okay, but what is it communicating? Often children (and adults) blame themselves when they are abandoned, she might think that her father left because he didn’t love her enough to stay; because she wasn’t good enough. She might be terrified that her mum is going to die. At times like this, we try to push away those closest to us.

I wonder if the OP could respond to her with a combination of understanding - and with boundaries.

Something like, “I know you’ve had such a hard time over the past year and if I were you I’d be feeling (angry/upset/worried, however you think she’s feeling underneath). Maybe you’re worried that you’re going to lose other people in your life too. I’m going to stick around and be here for you.”

”I would love for you to come and stay with me. Saying that, there is some behaviour that I cannot accept and if you are to come to stay with me then I have expectations which you need to agree to, which are…” and then these need to be agreed in advance. You also need a plan in place for what happens if she doesn’t stick to these, eg. Returning home early.

This way you’re saying that how she is feeling is understandable and okay; what’s not okay is her behaviour and what she is doing with those feelings.

Hope that makes sense!

You sound lovely @valsays .

Edinburgh sounds a great idea. Definitely just DN though.

Having read your other posts I agree that talking directly to your niece is the way forward. She is almost 16 now I think you said ? So 16 by the time of the visit ? She may actually feel embarrassed now but have dug her heels in, so a calm and kind but firm message to her might give her a way to sort it out in a more grown up fashion.

Absolutely no chance she would be staying with me! YANBU!

The suggested response from shinyandnew

I guarantee if you put any conditions in her staying she won't come. If she is still keen to come then there's probably something going on. Might not be anything bad but keep trying to get her to open up. She sounds very angry about something.

You're a much better person than most. I certainly would not have bought any present whatsoever after the way your DN behaved when you hosted her and her friend. I think the tradition of hosting your DN has reached an end.

You are a great aunt and a supportive sister. I agree with those saying that your DN is going through stuff at the moment. Of course, that doesn’t mean that you deserve to be her emotional punch bag but your awareness of her hinterland helps give her actions context.

If you do decide to host, clear boundaries that your DN is aware of before arrival might help - communicating directly to her and copying your sis in so they both know and it also gives her the autonomy of saying no if she doesn’t want to come. Nothing heavy, just saying it’ll be a relaxed visit with no particular events booked (and no clubbing:) just hanging out planning stuff day by day. Equally, you aren’t obligated to to host at all or maybe do a shorter stay?

At a guess, she’s not angry at you, you’re just one of the safe harbours to offload her pain. Teens can be hell but I’m a believer that all action is communication and it sounds like she’s had a lot to process over the last few years. It doesn’t mean her actions towards you are ok but she will eventually get through this and hopefully will remember that you were there for her.

I also think that Edinburgh is a good idea.
How good are you at having difficult conversations OP? What about her? Does she open up at all?

Thinking back to her rants. What would you like to have said to her? What at this distance do you think would have been a good way of handling it?

I wouldn’t have used the word hurt, but I would have said that her vulgar words are beneath. That if she is upset then use her words and actually say something constructive, but vomiting rage she has to do by herself. So aiming for a briskness, rather than stooping to her level.
She obviously doesn’t realize that actually she has it pretty easy. (She has!) so maybe try to get her to realize that.

Your opening post contradicts this though.

My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual.

If she thinks you’re unreasonable for not wanting to host your niece then she doesn’t think the behaviour’s that much of an issue. I wouldn’t expect my sister to want to be anywhere near teen DSD if she’d spoken to her like that- let alone spend hundreds of pounds on giving her a jolly.

My own kids don't even behave that way towards me, and my nieces and nephews I couldn't even imagine it. Tell your sis no way!!

People on mumsnet are generally very quick to suggest ending difficult relationships- it’s always “you have a DH problem” “LTB” “go no contact” but the reality is we have very few family relationships in this world and they can can last a lifetime and be cherished.

Teenagers experience emotion so intensely and aren’t psychologically sophisticated enough to manage it properly. Yes your neices behaviour is fucking appalling BUT she’s playing out something she can’t process. Seems like she’s testing how hard she has to push you to reject her before you do. Probably because her dad rejected her and she’s scared shitless her mum will die so she’s testing how easily you will walk away.

I don’t think you should have her to stay and spend a grand on her but don’t mirror her extreme behaviour if you want to salvage the relationship. Can you plan a few day visits, see her, maybe say “it’s doesn’t seem a good idea for you to visit but I’d like to see you” (note don’t say you don’t want her to visit, just it doesn’t seem a good idea so won’t be happening). Put in some boundaries, acknowledge it’s the consequence of her behaviour but don’t reject her.

@valsays controversial opinion but I don’t think you should be looking to punish DN. She behaved very badly last summer, yes, but you should have tackled it at the time or soon after. At Christmas your DN had to eat on her own and leave early - that sounds like an adequate punishment to me. It’s poor form to hold grudges with kids / it doesn’t help them change their behaviour at all. I think your focus needs to be on rebuilding your mutual trusting, loving relationship. Teens are tough on themselves and others. And your DN has some real challenges.
A trip to Edinburgh sounds like a good way to reset your relationship and find opportunities to talk.

Two options to consider. 1) Ask your DN. Say you clearly didn't enjoy it last year, I don't know why, so wondered if you'd prefer not to come this year. However, I think your DM needs a rest (cancer) so wondered if you were coming what you would like to do? Gives her the responsibility, makes her independent, underlines you haven't forgotten her poor behaviour. Depending on reaction, react accordingly, so for example, 'great suggestions, all booked, all your choice so I won't have any moaning this year', 2) Stay with your DS. Give her the rest by being there and helping, still see DN, but don't give her the treats etc. If she asks why, say 'oh well I thought you hadn't enjoyed last year so I thought I'd just see your mum'.

She needs to realise behaviour isn't acceptable, you won't keep on treating if she behaves that way, you don't want her at yours if she does. If she comes and behaves that way take her home.

I have an 18 year old. I didn't have not would I have accepted that behaviour.

@valsays "I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens."

You tell your sister that her poorly behaved kid is her problem and that you are surprised she's not so humiliated by what her daughter has done that she actually thinks you'll have her under your roof again.

Say no, mean no.

I completely understand your reluctance to spend another week as your niece’s metaphorical punchbag - but I think thinking about a week this summer as either a punishment or a reward for your niece is the wrong mindset.

Your niece’s behaviour last summer sounds awful, as does her reaction to your xmas present but surely you wouldn’t want to punish your niece a year/6 months after poor behaviour?

As a parent - but hopefully as a very close/important Auntie too we forgive, and we forgive and we forgive. That doesn’t mean I think you shouldn’t try to manage her behaviour or set boundaries/warnings about what is expected of her - but holding grudges isn’t helpful.

Hopefully she will mature in time and grow up into a nice young woman.

Edinburgh sounds good - if she fancies it. Which I would ask her as her idea of a good time might not be the same as yours so you might as well find out if you are on the same page to begin with. Another alternative might be your sister going on holiday and you staying at her house for a week if your sister needs a break and your niece can just do her normal thing. I appreciate that that isn’t a treat for you though and more a selfless act to help your sister.

I think it’s quite easy to burn bridges when the going gets tough and you have to dig deep to hang in there - but that doesn’t mean allowing your niece to treat you badly.

I think this rather misses the point. Bad behaviour like this – and it is obviously terrible – is a sign that something is badly wrong. All you are telling us is that your children and nieces and nephews are happier than the OP's DN, for which I am sure you are grateful, but which is also hardly surprising.

I would be inclined to say it's a no for the moment.
How could you manage her behaviour if she decides to just do whatever she wants when she arrives? You can't physically restrain her if she decides she is going to go clubbing. You can't force her into a car for a trip out.
You aren't the parent and have limited disciplinary measures or sanctions that you can use,
Unless you are confident you can deal with her anger and aggression then I wouldn't be willing to take on that risk.

Your niece sounds like an ungrateful nasty little cow who should be offering you a major apology.

This isn’t typical teenage behaviour at all.

Sounds like you’ve spent a huge amount of money on her over the years and that is how she thanks you. I’d be telling her and your sister that the annual visit is off until a genuine apology is given.

Quite. Teenagers can process loss as abandonment as well. It's a really complicated and difficult time for DN. 'Angry' for teenagers can be afraid, sad, frustrated, powerless, a whole lot of things that they need support with.

I do think immediate, natural consequences are important. But these need to be accompanied with love, empathy and emotional safety. You won't parent (or aunt!) well without both halves.

Why buy her anything, why plan treats, why go out of your way for her in any way, when the nicer you are the worse she behaves towards you? Some strange dynamic here. If some kind of family therapy isn't an option, I'd advise a healthy dose of time and space between the two of you.

Love this

I'd just message back: Well thankfully she's not my teenager, so I'm opting out of this stage. She's more than welcome when she turns back into a reasonable human being.