Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

I'm going to go against the general consensus here, it sounds like your sister and niece are having a really though time, and whilst your niece has behaved quite horribly it's very common for teens, when they're struggling, to lash out and behave abominably to people they love and feel safe with.

My brother is seven years younger than me and used to come and stay with me once a week as a similar aged teen when my parents were going though an acrimonious divorce, he was a little fucker to me sometimes, but I was always calm, loving and boundaried.

My DD went through a terrible time when she was 14 (it transpired she'd been sexually assaulted), I knew something was going on, her behaviour was off the wall for about a year, but I always stayed calm and consistent and loving, whilst not accepting the behaviour. It all came out eventually, and we dealt with it, she's now an absolutely delightful young woman. She was just going through a really tough time and didn't have the tools to communicate what was going on.

You love her, she undoubtedly loves you, she's not behaving like she is because she's bad and needs consequences, she probably needs to know that you and your sister aren't going to bugger off, through abandonment or death and it's a very teen thing to do to try and push for exactly the results they don't want through bad behaviour.

I'd suggest continuing with the visit but keep it pretty low-key, rather than outings and shows, maybe cooking together, or other calm, fairly mundane activities that allow conversation to flow whilst not having to concentrate on actually talking about 'the thing'.

Anyway, enough from me, you do sound like a wonderful sister and aunt, it's tough, but you sound like you have a solid and open relationship with your sister so I'm sure you'll work it out.

I teach secondary school and this isn’t normal. Yes they can push your patience and boundaries but the vast majority of teenagers are lovely with good manners. She has behavioural issues and sounds very rude. Don’t tolerate it.

Teens can be difficult and have their moment but most reserve their worse behaviour for their parents and their best behaviour for others. I wouldn't have her.

Teens can be difficult and have their moment but most reserve their worse behaviour for their parents and their best behaviour for others. I wouldn't have her.

No way would I be having someone visit me who had ignored me since Christmas, regardless of who they are.

I am surprised there are even four people who think you are being unreasonable.

I’ve gotten 2 children through their teen years and they never acted up like this. EVER. This is not normal teen behaviour. Like hell I’d be hosting her again.

Of course it isn't normal teen behaviour. She has been deserted by her father for a woman who isn't her mother, her father now lives overseas, and her mother now has cancer.

That doesn't make the behaviour acceptable. It does explain why it isn't normal!

Taking into account the fact that she's angry and has gone through a tough time, perhaps you could put the onus back on your niece? Say to your sister that DN did not seem to enjoy herself very much last time so you'll open up the offer but you need to speak to DN first. Leave it then for DN to contact you and maybe you'll be able to have a reasonable discussion?

I don't know! I'm fundamentally an optimist and even though she's behaved inexcusably, there might still be a way back. But I think the first move needs to come from DN.

Say no and mean it It's time for her to learn their are consequences of her actions Do you think its Anger built up from parents split?
Can i come visit you instead im not 16 ans i wouldnt be ungrateful either

Yes, teenagers can be extremely trying and obnoxious ( and turn into lovely people, I talk from personal experience about family member) but YANBU in not letting your niece stay in August. Her behaviour is not acceptable and you need to explain to your sister that your niece will not be allowed to stay until there is a change in her behaviour. You put an enormous amount of effort into making her previous stay wonderful ( sounds amazing). You sound like a brilliant Aunt

Completely unreasonable of her.

I do wonder though why she’s behaving like that. I would consider if something has happened that’s upset her or affected her in some way. Just doesn’t seem like typical teenage angst somehow.

No way would I have her to stay. I have a 22 year old and a 19 year old and neither has ever behaved like that. Do not be a doormat.

None of my teens acted like that. They used to stay with their Nan and didn't get taken to anywhere near all the places you did with your ungrateful niece. My teens were really grateful to go to see Nan. I'd say no not until she sorts out her attitude. I wouldn't be gifting her at Xmas either until I'd had an apology about last Xmas from her.

Does your DN actually want to come, if she’s not spoken to you since Christmas?

I think I’d have to set some ground rules, and scale any spending right back. I understand that you don’t want her to think she’s abandoned by you too, but she needs some boundaries too. It’s ok to tell her that her behaviour last time was unacceptable and if it happens again then there won’t be a next time.

Nor should you subject yourself to that type of behavior. No matter how mixed up, confused, angry or upset your DN is, there needs to be consequences for her actions. Not letting her come to stay with you is a perfect consequence, as it directly involves how she has treated YOU.

In a few years, she will, hopefully, mature and learn to treat others as she would like to be treated. Until then, I hope she continues to get some counselling to learn to deal with her emotions and not make everyone suffer under them.

This.

She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual

Hmm-can see where her daughter gets it from!

Honestly she should have already told her daughter that it wouldn't be happening.

She didn't enjoy it last time so why would it happen again.

Also, why would she want to stay with someone who is so shit at everything?

I think Edinburgh sounds really good. Loads to do with the festival and other places of interest. Also cool bragging rights for her when starting sixth form. But I would send her an email stating how much her behaviour has hurt you. State the wheres and what fors of the Edinburgh trip. Give her some activities - the fringe prog that she can chose what to see with some ground rules.
If you book tickets at her behest then she goes with no fuss.
She comits to speaking civilly and treating you with respect.
You both get your own down time and freedom with the proviso that she keeps in touch and to time frames.
That she treats you with kindness and respect and that will be reciprocated. If she does not or her behaviour deteriorates to that of last summer and Christmas that you will curtail the trip and she goes home on the earliest available train.
Be firm but fair and see how she reacts. If her immediate reaction is not positive or surly in any way then you draw the line and say no.

Behaviour is communication and this is a troubled young lady who has been let down by her father and is very angry. Much as the friend is lovely, I think that is a complication and expense you don't need. Perhaps niece, if she goes, could pay for a couple of meals out for you and the host in Edinburgh as a thank you.

I have teenagers too, well one is close to 20, the other 17. When they were 14 of course there were hormonal teenage moments, but there is absolutely no way that they would have behaved like this, the moodiness on the trip is bad enough but some 14 year olds are like this. The present though - that is beyond the pale and if one of my dds did this to my sibling , the response from me would be nuclear.
This isn’t normal behaviour at all. My friends have teens of varying temperaments but none of them would have done that to an aunt.

Sounds really hard. You would not be unreasonable not to see dn until she makes a mense. But in order to give sister a much needed break i would probably still have her and try and see it as a fresh start maybe she will behave better. If she doesn't calmly and firmly tell her when her behaviour is not acceptable. And whatever the teenage equivalent is of lots of praise/attention when she is being reasonable.

Sounds like she backed herself into a corner at Christmas, is probably embarrassed and can’t work out how to open up the conversation. She may also have some weird teenage emotions around you living a glamorous London life, in her eyes, whilst she is stuck at home with mum - particularly likely if you previously lived with them and then moved away. Teenagers sometimes get stuck in a cycle of behaving badly, hating themselves for it, and then behaving badly again because they’re frustrated with themselves. That doesn’t make it okay, but it does likely mean that it isn’t as personal as it feels. Would it be helpful to try and engage her in plans in advance? “Hoping we can catch up as usual in August. Would you like to come to London or do you fancy Edinburgh for a change?” Then offer a couple of options for day 1 of her stay. Have a “script” prepared to use on day 2 if necessary “I love you and will always love you. I realise that being a teenager is tough and that there are probably all sorts of things going on for you that I don’t understand. It’s up to you whether or not you want to talk to me about them. However, being rude and dismissive to other people is simply not acceptable, so I’m going to suggest that we try and reset the tone of this visit so that it is pleasant for everyone. I’m going to do X tomorrow, if you’d like to come with me then please be ready at 9.30am. If you don’t want to come that absolutely fine. I’ll be home late afternoon and we can have dinner about 7pm”. Don’t expect a response, don’t expect an apology. If she gets up and goes out with you great. If she doesn’t just rinse and repeat every night of the visit - I’m doing X be ready at Y, or happy to take your suggestions if you have any. That way she has the option to engage without losing face, but you don’t waste precious leave sitting in with a grumpy teenager.

I have teen this is absolutely not normal behaviour. No way would I have her to stay.

Absolutely do not have her to stay, clearly your sister tolerating this sort of shit without proper consequences and that's why your dn is behaving like a spoiled brat. Say no, and don't buy her anything until she apologises for her rudeness.