Really dislike 16-year-old niece: don't want to have her to stay

[valsays]

My sister was divorced several years ago and is sole parent to my niece who's almost 16. Her ex lives abroad and sees his DD rarely. I used to get on really well with DN and spent quite a lot of time with her until she reached the age of around 13, at which point she started to become obnoxious. I ignored the snide remarks and lack of consideration or gratitude for as long as I could, but last year things reached a head.

She and a friend of hers came to stay with me for 4 nights, as they have a couple of times a year for some years. I live in London and when she stays I do things with them that they wouldn't be able to do where they live. Last year we went down the Thames to Hampton Court on a boat, we shopped at Camden Market and Spitalfields and Hoxton, we went to Tate Modern and the Globe theatre, we saw a couple of shows and a couple of films. I pay for everything, obviously. DN's friend was lovely. DN was a complete nightmare. Didn't want to go out and do anything but was angling to go clubbing and angry with me for saying no. She was 14! Didn't want to go anywhere I suggested, couldn't suggest anything she'd like to do. One day we had a quiet day locally, because she was so adamant about not going out, and she complained we didn't do anything. I tried talking to her to find out what was going on, but she told me to eff off and then had a furious rant at me. She was really trying to be hurtful. I soaked it up and tried to comfort her friend, who found the situation difficult, but it really spoiled the last couple of days of their visit and she had another major outburst in the car when I took them home.

Last Christmas I bought her something that I'm sure she'd said she wanted. Something that cost £300. I was there when she opened it, with my DM and DS and other family members around. DN opened her present, pulled a face and then threw it at me and said 'You're as shit at buying presents as everything else' and walked out and slammed the door on us. My DM was shocked. My DS went after DN and told her off and there was a big row that ruined the day. DN hasn't spoken to me or contacted me since then. I've messaged her occasionally and she's just ignored me.

My DS knows what DN is like, but is still anticipating that this August I'll have her and the friend to stay as usual. As the time approaches I feel less and less like doing it. Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse.

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens. She's actually accused me of being unreasonable for not carrying on as usual. AIBU?

No I wouldnt be hosting her. However … what was the divorce like for her? How was there marriage before it happened? Sounds like her formative years may have been extremely difficult and she’s lashing out. I hope she can get some help with her emotions.

I have a 16yo DD who wouldn't dream of acting in any such way. By continuing to pander to this behaviour it's is being enabled.

Fuck that shit!!

I've contacted my DS to say I'm not sure I want to continue the tradition. My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens

I know you said your DSis tries to sanction her OP, but unfortunately this "it's just part of dealing with teens" - we see it all the time on here, when they're not being armchair diagnosed - is a major part of why some behave as they do

The sort of behaviour you describe is neither normal nor acceptable, and IMO the sooner we accept this instead of making endless excuses for them the better

And rather than thinking of alternative treats she might like, I'm with those who'd tell her she's not coming - and exactly why

Does your DN actually want to visit? Or is your sister assuming things just carry on?
If you haven’t really spoken for 6 months she might be dreading the thought of coming.

However, her behaviour is appalling so if you do go ahead I’d be setting out boundaries and managing expectations. There is a big difference between being a moody teenager and some of this behaviour. I’d be reigning in the overindulgence as well for this trip at least. Let her pick one “thing” to do and then I’d make it clear the other days will be less indulgent - pub meal or a takeaway night, mooch around the shops/park etc. and stick to it.

Moodiness and not wanting to go out, making slightly rude/inappropriate comments in conversation, trying to act a bit older (like 'asking' an aunt to take them clubbing) etc... normal teen.

Telling you to 'F off', throwing presents back at people, slamming doors etc... seriously bratty behavior.

I don't think childhood trauma is an excuse for treating people like shit. Your DN can be angry at the world all she likes, but it's still a choice to behave like she does towards you. And people mollycoddling her only enforces her belief that she can be as vile as she wants and people will just accept it.

If your sister needs a break, invite your sister to come and stay with you instead. DN can be looked after by another family member if she can't be trusted to stay on her own for a few days.

I don’t think many people are frothing. They are agreeing with you that they wouldn’t have her to stay either.

Would you have someone to stay after they’d behaved like op’s niece?

DN needs to hear no stays in London until she stops being unpleasant and ungrateful.

I think the clubbing thing is one of the solid reason to refuse to host her. Last year she asked, this year she may just sneak out/ disappear. And given how bratty she is - you're not sure if you can control her and keep her safe.

Dear god that’s horrifying! Two teen girls here frankly they are never rude to us because that is just not acceptable behaviour. Their friends are the same when they come here - delightful. DN friend sounds like a normal teen DN does not.

"Their visits cost me over £1k, which I don't begrudge. But I'm not going to spend that sort of money and also soak up the abuse."

I'm shocked, I assumed they would bring their own spending money for their sighseeing, but that you would provide food & accommodation...why on earth are you spending this amount of money on a niece and a friend of hers that you don't even know in the first place...

Please take a step back, this isn't normal behaviour from your niece. If she hasn't even talked to you since the Xmas incident, why would you want her in your home? The atmosphere would be awkward, plus as a PP said, by allowing her to visit you again she will have learnt no life lessons as to how to treat people...

Her behaviour is quite frankly disgusting....your poor sister needs to wake up, the way your niece spoke to you is not normal!

I'm so sorry OP, but this madam will have to learn the hard way :-(

Hey OP @valsays
Can I just say firstly you sound like a caring family and unfortunately it does sound like your niece is just lashing out. At first my thought was your sister was enabling her but she has sanctions in place so is very clear about every action having a consequence.

I have 2 daughters who went thru some stuff in their teens because of an extended family member and I think your niece is lashing out because of things to do with her Dad. Fathers play an important role in the lives of their teens as they grow and I genuinely feel she is not able to express the hurt and abandonment she is feeling from her Dad. Teens lash out at their parents & close relatives because they know they can not because they can get away with it & sometimes it is because they just want to talk their emotions through.

As an example in my family my girls will tell me anything & everything but their Dad is there for all the ‘fun & messing around stuff’. They know I will tell their Dad everything so that we both know what is going on with them. It’s now become a bit of a joke in our house. Your niece doesn’t have that so that void needs to be filled by someone.

I like the idea of Edinburgh 1) because it will take you both away. You will be surprised by just having a change of scenery the difference it can make.
2) You can do fun stuff together
3) You have a better chance of talking to her and finding out what is really going on when you are not on home ground.

This is not to be seen as a reward but a chance for you both to get some quality time together.

One thing I would suggest you do is going to see her & explaining that this year you will be doing something different just the 2 of you. Don’t get drawn into any attempt to throw a hissy fit, be clear no friend just u 2 Girls Trip.

You also need to make it clear to her that the behaviour she showed at Xmas will not be tolerated. Point it out to her that it has been 6 months since you had any contact with her. Ask her why? Has she been avoiding you? Did she not think that she owed you an apology? Don’t let her get away with anything. She needs to understand that you are no pushover but at the same time she also needs to see how much you care about her.

At 16 she thinks she knows it all and she doesn’t we know that but teens can be a different species altogether. She doesn’t have a father figure so try and show her that she can come to you with anything. Teens always look for the one person they can go to who won’t judge them. Good luck OP it will be hard but not impossible.

I have a 13 year old DD and there is no way I would put up with that behaviour.

If you agree to host her this year it will reiterate in her mind that her behaviour was acceptable which it most definitely was not.

Do not host her and use your hard earned money and time to take yourself somewhere nice.

I would also stop buying her gifts since she's told you you're so bad at it.

Really glad now that I didn’t offer support or advice on this thread. You asked if you were being unreasonable; people told you you weren’t and were supportive. You responded by calling them names.

If people thinking the worst of your niece upsets you so much maybe don’t post on the internet that you “really dislike” her or call her “obnoxious” and “a complete nightmare”? It just make you seem a bit hypocritical.

That makes sense - having a third neutral party could also be helpful and keep her behaviour in check. The festival could be quite full on though and if she goes off, hard to keep track of her etc which could become stressful. As others have said, it’s not clear your DN wants to come so you may be worrying over nothing. I really hope it all works out (whether that means a trip or not) and this is a short phase.

If your DS has to deal with that kind of behaviour every day then she needs to sort it out. No chance would I have her visit. At no time did my teens behave like this.

OP, you just need to be prepared that even if you trek her all the way up to Scotland and get tickets, she still may refuse to go to any shows, or go and tell you that she hated it. I’m not confident that the friend will be a buffer—she was happy to be disrespectful to you in front of her friend last year and she was happy to swear at you in front of the audience at Christmas. She may be hell-bent on ruining the event for both you and your friend. As long as you are aware and are expecting this, by all means proceed with caution…

”The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.” She showed you last August and last December. Be prepared for a repeat in Edinburgh.

My DS says she has to face this kind of behaviour every day and it's just part of dealing with teens.

I'd have laughed at her and said "yep, you do, but I don't and I won't be having her again, enjoy yourself".

Wouldn't be bothering with that again.

I have two teens and it's not normal behaviour or just life with teens. My eldest could be bloody hard work at 14 but he was charming outside of the house in front of others

Apologies that I can't read the whole thread, but what stands out is DN was abandoned by father and is now facing the fear of your sister "abandoning" her through dying. Instead of waiting around to find out which painful method you're going to abandon her with, she's precipitating it by pushing you away now. It's a way for her to claw back a tiny bit of control when so much in her life is out of her control.

Which I think is what you're getting at too? You're obviously very important to her. I think individual therapy with an expert and kind psychotherapist could really help give DN a space to process these understandable feelings.

I think spending 1k on this visit and the expensive gift is perhaps a bit much in any event. She does sound like she has been spoilt by the family in general. I think I would offer to have her fir a couple of days if she would like to come on her own. I think a talk beforehand about the activities on offer would also be a good idea. You should also say that if she is unhappy or angry on the visit she will go home early.

OP you can't help her though, you don't see her enough to be able to do anything. The best thing you can do is to refuse to have her staying with you. If her mum says she behaves that way all the time, it's her who has to do something about it, not you. She probably wants her staying with you so she has a rest from her.

I think it's harsh from posters who are basically suggesting you wash your hands of her indefinitely! I'd do something with her, Xmas was 6 months ago. I also think it shows how close your relationship was if she acted like that with you, no way would a teen do that to a person they didn't feel comfortable with. A lot can change in a few months at her age. I'd not do a full weekend though, just a day out or something if that's possible. Could she get the train to you just for the day? Then you can see how she is and if you're ready to plan something bigger in the future just the two of you. I do feel for her having a dad who left the continent for another woman, I'm not sure I'd have coped with that as a teenager or even now in my 30's!