Are weddings actually seriously uncool? Naff as anything?

[comoatoupeira]

Light-hearted! This is about taste and fashion and society, not about the institution of marriage or the spirituality of the wedding ceremony.

Just reading the thread about the bridezilla who wants her sister to change her haircolour to be her bridesmaid, just the ultimate in deranged and self centered behaviour.

I've been having these twinge thoughts in the back of my mind for a while now, and I'm finally putting it out there: are weddings "over", meaning that they are actually naff and bad taste now?

What I mean is the classic wedding: overdone and over-achieving bride, matching bridesmaids in pastel satin, expensive everything. Men in expensive tailoring but who manage to not look elegant?

I think elopement and queer (in the academic sense) ways of getting married are in? Or just quietly in the registry office and then a party?

Taste arbiters, tell me your thoughts!

Agree.

I should have added that I was six months pregnant at the time 😂 so it kind of made sense … city hall happily provide witnesses from their office and you take a ticket and wait for your number to be called like a deli counter. It took approximately five minutes!

@comoatoupeira

But lots of people love them and couples should be able to do what they want, and people who want to bitch shouldn't go to them

I agree on your first point. People should do whatever makes them happy.

On the second point it isn’t quite as easy as you suggest: in practice the drama and blowback associated with not going to a wedding is such that it’s just not worth it not to go. People get so arsy and unreasonable.

A frightening number of people seem to attach a frenzied and utterly ridiculous degree of significance to weddings. The way people post about them on here is instructive: reams and reams of hand-wringing and drama about the most eye-bleedingly trivial things.

My position on weddings is that they are just another thing you sometimes have to do. They aren’t particularly interesting or important. People do them and you go along with good grace but there’s always some subtext of someone getting the hump about something which just doesn’t matter: the colour of the bridesmaids dresses or the hotel the groom’s cousin has chosen to stay in or some other bollocks.

I just think people who like them are free to drive themselves nuts worrying about these unimportant things but I just can’t be arsed.

You've really touched on something here.

The 'shift' the giant leap to a new phase of life, is often missing from modern, maybe dare I say - western - marriage ceremonies.

They haven't largely changed, but people's approaches to sex, children and marriage has.

Perhaps it now feels like there's a gap between the way weddings are conducted and what they increasingly symbolise now. Which perhaps is nothing more than a formal legalisation of a lifestyle already commenced.

It's no longer the 'Bride being given away' she already has been 'given' so to speak. Also even that way of thinking is no longer in vogue, where partners are often considered equals who often even pay equally for their own marriage ceremonies.

The Bride isn't half nervous/anticipatory about the wedding night. Neither are desperate to be together at last as proper marrieds and for the day to be over/fearful it's over. A lot of the emotional charge is now missing.

When I was growing up in the early 80's it was still considered a bit🤨🤨 if a woman had the 'audacity' to walk down the aisle pregnant. Equally it was much worse if she didn't walk down the aisle at all!

Likewise the marriage being 'big' and inviting your mother's-3rd cousin-daughter's-boss'-sister and her husband was partly so everyone within a hundred miles would know that Jenny, Lisa or Sarah was now an 'honest' woman and any children conceived beforehand/to come are no longer/will not be illegitimate or worse, 'bastards'.

All this is increasingly redundant now. It isn't a big humongous shift. People don't enter into married life green anymore. People don't need pots, pans, bedding, and cutlery because they are starting from scratch.

It now just sounds grabby when people have lists of required items now as they (perhaps) stem from wants, not needs. The couples wedding night isn't a mystery to them. You could argue it held more excitement the first time they were intimate in the exciting period of dating and getting to know each other.

Marriages haven't kept up with societal shifts in women's rights, status, capitalism and religious and or moral attitudes.

And then there's fast moving Social Media now to boot.

@DysonSphere

Perhaps it now feels like there's a gap between the way weddings are conducted and what they increasingly symbolise now. Which perhaps is nothing more than a formal legalisation of a lifestyle already commenced.

This is a really interesting point.

I do think the function of a wedding has diminished and become decoupled from its original one.

I am a feminist and the whole idea of a woman being handed over from one bloke to another offends me in a fundamental way.

I realise there’s more to it than this and that marriage can serve a non misogynist purpose but the whole idea seems very rooted in something which has no relevance to me. And the whole wedding aesthetic to me seems so prissy, outdated and cringe.

@Thepeopleversuswork the whole idea of a woman being handed over from one bloke to another offends me in a fundamental way.

Same.

My parents didn't get married until I was six. I remember a girl I played with who lived directly opposite with us, saying her mum and dad told her I was a bastard. I was adamant I wasn't whatever that word meant (because whatever it meant sounded horrible) and felt genuinely crushed when my mother told me it was true. She was very matter of fact about it, I don't recall her being uncomfortable telling me what it meant.

My parents went on to have my siblings after they got married and for ages I felt set apart from them.

My mother has some quite sobering stories of being treated quite badly by my grandparents, family members (many stopped talking to her and never visited us) and random strangers.

Being married prevented societal shame aimed at women and children then. It was a pretty big deal, though worth noting my mother's shame was also rooted and compounded by other cultural biases. So I can't be sure it was wholly reflective of English sentiments. But yeah, marriage to a far larger extent unlocked doors to societal 'privileges' that aren't considered privileges anymore.

You could argue marriage does the opposite for women now.

I had a small-ish "quirky" wedding first time round, done on the cheap, and quirky because it was neither one thing nor t'other. It was awful and I hated it. It wasn't fun and I didn't feel special. My dad had a go at me in his speech and my now-ex husband got absolutely shit-faced. The marriage lasted longer than it should have done and we were both terribly unhappy throughout.

I'm getting married again next year. The wedding is hopefully going to be everything I didn't have last time (including a groom who isn't a wanker). Beautiful country house hotel, lots of good friends, fab food, a dress I love and no clearing up afterwards. I can't wait.

@DysonSphere

Being married prevented societal shame aimed at women and children then.

Yes. And also financial protection for women (which is still the case).

As a practical tool to safeguard partners and children from exploitation or to manage legal and inheritance issues marriage makes sense to me. I can completely understand why people do it (though I wouldn’t).

What I struggle with is the modern fixation people continue to have with its trappings, even though the symbolism to me is a throwback to an age where women were to be disposed of, sex was a source of shame if not related to conception and families got involved and threw their agendas around.

Although most people accept that the role of marriage has changed, people still want to channel the bizarre and (to me) regressive stuff that goes with it. And invest VAST amounts of money, time and energy into all this.

Traditional weddings are just so boring. I don't remember many specific things about any of the ones I've been to to be honest. You're kept waiting around for 2-4 hours whilst the bride and groom have photos. 2 weddings there was nowhere to even get a drink of water and there were many toddlers at one of them. I think candid photos are far nicer.

The most memorable ones for me are the ones where people have just had fun on their wedding day. A close relative for example had a handful of people there, got married in a registry office in a lovely colourful dress and had a picnic in the park after. It was no stress for them and everyone had a great time.

At my brother in laws wedding it was lovely but even the couple got sick of the photographer asking them to pose with different people as it wasn't what they wanted. I spoke to the photographer for them as they were quite frustrated and it was fine. A long wait for food for the children though like most weddings!

I do think traditional weddings are outdated and my circle have moved away from that and now the weddings I go to are more informal and relaxed for all.

I understand what people are saying about traditional weddings being boring with a lot of hanging around. I had a traditional wedding so after the ceremony became the hotel was city centre we put on coaches to get everyone from the church to the hotel. The hotel opened a bar for us (we paid the bill for the bar before we fed people) we had canapés, a magician and plenty of seating as some of our guests were around 90 years old. Yes you should have the day you want but if you want guests to celebrate with you then provide them with something.

I loved our understated wedding but I don’t judge anyone with different tastes.

However if the average wedding is now costing over £20K, as stated upthread, then the elaborate ones with ‘princess for a day’ vibes presumably cost more. If brides scaled back they could have a good chunk of a down payment towards a first house.

This is especially poignant because I think PPs were very perceptive pointing out that it may be young women without high expectations of life who tend to prefer elaborate weddings

@poetryandwine

This is especially poignant because I think PPs were very perceptive pointing out that it may be young women without high expectations of life who tend to prefer elaborate weddings

Yes exactly. I find the idea of a wedding as the pinnacle of a woman’s life pretty depressing. It’s bound up for me with the idea that you can’t really expect more from life than to have a man take care of you.

Also the “Princess for a day” thing is utterly nauseating. Not only because it’s naff but because the unspoken implication is that that’s the last day you get to be treated like a princess. From there on in you’re a handmaiden. So make the most of your special day etc etc.

Exactly this. It speaks of low expectations, limited self-worth, and a complete absence of ambitions/life goals outside marriage. How low would your expectations for the rest of your life need to be in order for this Special Princess for a Day stuff to loom that large?

@Vermeer

How low would your expectations for the rest of your life need to be in order for this Special Princess for a Day stuff to loom that large?

Which is why I find it odd that so many affluent, well educated and ambitious women also embrace it. The whole Bridget Jones/Sex and the City thing. All the chick lit books have weddings as the ultimate goal.

I’m going to sound like a roaring snob but here goes: I think it’s more understandable when you have few other things to look to in your life but why do wealthy and processional women also embrace the weird, twee and regressive centrality of a wedding as the zenith of their lives? I have never got this.

Yes, I wonder this too. I don’t think your question is snobbish, actually. Sociologically speaking, it’s a valid one.

I understand to an extent why my lovely SILs were insanely wedding-focused. Both married young in the 1980s, having left school at 15 with minimal qualifications, and expecting to work in low-paid manual jobs all their working lives, have large families and be SAHMs on low incomes (both husbands in comparatively low-paid, unskilled jobs). The wedding was, as you’ve said, a huge life moment for them, and both the gateway to what they thought would be the business of their adult lives, AND a sole moment of queendom before they settled down to raising children on a tight budget — both lived at home till their wedding day and would have had limited opportunities to have sex with their future husbands, and neither had left their home country before the honeymoon. So, understandably a big deal.

Why it wasn’t a big deal for me is equally understandable. Same WC background, but I resisted parental pressure to leave school, got scholarships to university, then overseas grad school, then made a professional career in other countries, travelled a lot, took all opportunities, had met DH v young, but was concerned with us both embracing freedoms, and not keen on patriarchal baggage of marriage, so only got married when pregnant because it was easier than drawing up equivalencies via a solicitor — jeans, two witnesses, local register. My relationship is important, but the actual marriage wasn’t.

Both these different views of marriage are understandable. As you say, it’s the fetishisation of Princess for a Day stuff by women with means, goals and lots going on in their lives and who are not defined by their marital status that is more mysterious…?

Though chick lit/romance novels bother me less, just because fiction needs conflict. The protagonist needs to want something and overcome obstacles to get it. Generically in these the goal is marriage, just like it’s the destruction of Sauron or finding the murderer in other genres..?

I think things have gone too far, I much prefer a simple wedding all the excesses under the current economic situation are obscene. Having said that each to their own. To me it's all about the vows and friends and family coming together to celebrate the couple. Often the demands on invited guests are so ridiculous it presents difficulties for them to even contemplate attending.

Though chick lit/romance novels bother me less, just because fiction needs conflict. The protagonist needs to want something and overcome obstacles to get it. Generically in these the goal is marriage, just like it’s the destruction of Sauron or finding the murderer in other genres..?

Sure: it doesn’t bother or offend me but I do find it quite striking when weddings remain such a central theme in art and literature aimed at women for whom marriage is less and less relevant with every generation. Maybe that’s the whole point: there’s a nostalgia factor.

peopleversuswork I think you are overthinking it… firstly not all “ chick lit” books have weddings as the ultimate goal. I mean, I haven’t read them all, but I’ve read a lot of Marian Keyes and similar (usually described as Chick Lit) and that’s not the message in her books.
Secondly the historical significance of weddings is not as simple as a woman with no value being offloaded and having a man take care of her. Marriage is the joining of two families- the reasons could be varied (eg she has land he has money). Of course back then weddings were not for the peasants and I guess that’s really what is being said here?
Is it possible that even working class women who want to have a big traditional wedding might have other things in their lives to look forward to?? It’s quite patronising to assume they wouldn’t!
All this horror of ordinary women wanting to celebrate a wedding in any way other than “ tasteful and low key” stems from the usual disgust the middle class have for the working class getting above themselves, and being feckless.
Yes, identikit weddings can be tedious but what’s wrong with marking life events in a big way? Some of the “we turned up in jeans and got it over with” posts just make me feel depressed! Life is short- we don’t always know how short. It’s certainly too short to always be tasteful and low key.

All this horror of ordinary women wanting to celebrate a wedding in any way other than “ tasteful and low key” stems from the usual disgust the middle class have for the working class getting above themselves, and being feckless.

You are so right! There is a massive amount of snobbery on display in this thread.

@PontiacFirebird

Fair. I did say I knew I was sounding like a snob and maybe I am, I can own that.

I don’t think working class women don’t have anything to look forward to. I think they are far more economically independent and powerful than they used to be.

I do think marriage has evolved but you talk about the joining of families: true but again what is the value of that to a woman? Marriage has always fundamentally been about money. It still is; it serves to protect the weaker person in the partnership (usually the woman). Love was until recently a side issue in a marriage.

As women become more powerful marriage loses it’s utility to women. I do think it’s bizarre that a ritual which is of declining relevance and utility is so actively promoted and aspired to by women.

I do also think the aesthetic of weddings is usually horrifically tacky. Even the “tasteful” ones. Everything about them is twee and old fashioned and prissy. That’s kind of a side issue but it just adds to my bemusement when so many of my super bright and well educated friends devoted so much time and energy to them.

I think they are far more economically independent and powerful than they used to be.
We sure are 😬
Again though, historically marriage has benefitted both men and women, depending on what assets they brought with them.
In my own family women have always worked, always, and lived in extended families before marriage so didn’t actually need husbands economically( and I think that’s true for a lot of working class women in the 19th and 20th centuries))
As to why middle class women might embrace the bells and whistles of weddings- maybe because life can be so casual nowadays- working in tracksuit bottoms, formality optional) that it makes the wedding feel truly important.
Personally I think marriage itself benefits men more nowadays too and im
not mad keen on it for myself but it’s important to a lot of people.

@PontiacFirebird

Personally I think marriage itself benefits men more nowadays

Me too. Unless you’re a SAHM and are planning not to work, marriage is a big risk. I don’t think it’s worth it for working women.

I agree with you and find some of the posters views here on marriage only being a big deal to those who have nothing else a bit…weird.

My wedding was a big deal to both our families. It symbolised families coming together, a new unit being born, joy and happiness and excitement. My husband and I are high earners who work in professional services and who have lots to look forward in life but a wedding was a huge deal nonetheless. All my friends who have got married in their late twenties have done so with similar attitudes to their weddings — engaged one year and married the next, none of this hanging about waiting for years and years, married before having children.

I am not British, so forgive my ignorance here, but what I see it’s usually the working classes who wait around for ages and then decide to get married late? It’s a v clear class divide — no one from my university friend group has seriously entertained the idea of kids before marriage; it just would be considered a bit weird.

There are so few joyful, accepted rituals in modern British life. Don’t get rid of the weddings too!

@poetryandwineHowever if the average wedding is now costing over £20K, as stated upthread, then the elaborate ones with ‘princess for a day’ vibes presumably cost more

Interestingly, not in my experience. You can get a package deal at a hotel near me for 5k - 80 guests, sitting on thrones at dinner, photos out in the garden under the pergola, cake, DJ, catering, flowers all included - all these weddings are the same. We had a less formal barn wedding and were 15k for the venue and catering before we even started.

Our wedding cost a lot more than 20k, but before anyone decides to criticise me, we already owned our house. Yes we could have knocked a chunk off the mortgage instead, but we have nice memories. The wedding was a ritual we wanted to have.

There are so few joyful, accepted rituals in modern British life. Don’t get rid of the weddings too!

No one is suggesting getting rid of them. Your weddings are safe. I don’t think everyone finds them joyful but they aren’t going anywhere. I think some of us just want to have to care a bit less about them is all.