Two 12 year old boys have been convicted of murder after stabbing a 19 year old man with a machete

[AngeloMysterioso]

AIBU to be gobsmacked and just terrified by this?!

I mean what the fuck are a pair of 12 year olds doing with a machete in the first place??

Nature vs Nurture, Circumstances vs Influences, all of the above in a perfect storm? What makes an individual commit a terrible act? It’s fascinating and sad

Never has so much effort been put into trying to stop scum like this from becoming the excrement they are. No exclusions from school, counselling, programmes, free school meals, free trips etc etc etc
I don’t understand why no one is realising that more punishment, greater restrictions etc are the way to go not constant pandering and excuses.

the fact that it was deemed that these two inhuman pieces of shit who hacked an innocent man to death would be too scared to sit in a normal court and had to sit with their mummies and the judges couldn’t wear wigs etc tells us exactly how out of touch the system is.
weren’t too scared to thrust a foot long machete into someone’s back but would be too nervous to be in court? What a pile of bleeding heart shit.

They should be locked up in an adult prison and the key thrown away.

Yes, I've just posted in response to someone else saying I should have expressed that better. I meant the boys were probably immersed in gang culture, not that Shawn had anything to do with gangs.

These boys are dangerous, especially the one who said he didn't care. They need to be away from the rest of us for a good long time for public protection and some attempt at rehabilitation. Having said that, all the people saying 12-year-olds know right from wrong and their much younger children know that knife crime is wrong - that's because you've put time and effort into teaching them. I doubt anybody has had any success getting this message through to these kids. I wonder if they've even been attending school. A lot of kids who get involved in crime very young have been excluded from school.

Can you find any evidence linking harsher sentencing to a reduction in violent crime? I can find plenty linking equality of income to a reduction in all crime and plenty linking increased inequality to an increase in all crimes.

We've always had violent crime, we still celebrate it and the people who commit it; the Krays, Peaky Blinders, Bronson etc

I'm convinced you'd have more impact teaching the real consequences of violent crime alongside offering people a stake in society, but that requires a commitment we're not prepared to make.

Pierre point the hangman wrote a book after he retired he admitted that he didn't think hanging was a deterrent.

Deliberately attacked multiple times with a machete! Would any of us have done that at age 12? Clearly a case of psychopath behaviour, nothing less.

Bad judgement? That's making a mistake, not repeatedly stabbing someone. Have you heard of the Jamie Bulger case? There are some details in that you wouldn't want to know and they were younger.

YANBU. I got caught up in a machete attack in my street recently (I don’t want to give too many details because it’s very outing) that involved a boy ago around 15-17. I was really shocked by two things 1) how young and vulnerable the attacker seemed and 2) how beyond useless and dumb the police are
Did you have any compassion for the victim of the 'Young and vulnerable' attacker who was bludgeoning someone with his weapon?
The police aren't as 'dumb and useless' as the court systems which seem to share your view that the violent attackers are the real poor souls who deserve our sympathy and should be the priority.

Yeah, depends how big the blade is, used to be called 'bowling' when I was younger and pimp limp in the US 😂

Spot on 👏🏻 would they have dared to commit a crime like this in a country like Saudi or the UAE? No - because their punishment would have been execution.

Our lax system is what enables pieces of shit like these two boys to literally get away with murder

Well yes, of course I did. What on earth do you THINK it feels like to witness/ experience something like that? I had a lot of very complex and contradictory feelings about the whole situation 🫤.

My observation about the attacker being ‘vulnerable’ had nothing to do with ‘feeling sorry for him’, because I absolutely don’t. It was an observation. Clearly he was young and scared of something or someone (he drew the weapon in self-defence initially, as I said ) and it made me question what actually leads someone to the point where they end up carrying a deadly weapon? Boys that age ARE vulnerable. Vulnerable to exploitation. Vulnerable to gang violence, vulnerable to malign influences. If we don’t ask the question of why and what leads people down this path we have absolutely no hope of fixing the problem! It was the first time that I had realised that someone can be vulnerable and dangerous at the same time and that vulnerability can make a person more dangerous. I had never linked the two concepts before.

I recognise that we need to remove the factors that create this vulnerability AND ALSO have effective policing.

As for the police, literally every time myself or anyone I know has ever had to deal with them they have been useless and dumb. Or actively nasty and dangerous themselves. Sorry if that offends you but that is just my experience 🫤.

Well it stopped the hanged perpetrator from reoffending didn't it 😉😉

I don't know that it is a matter of whether they know its wrong or not.

I think they know its wrong, and they don't care.

They don't truly believe there will be severe consequences, and in all honesty, there won't be from their perspective.

From yours or mine, losing your freedom, being sent to whatever version of prison we use for under 18s, etc... would be horrific. We of course are adults with lives to lead, commitments, responsibilities, hopes and dreams.

They are almost certainly kids without any of that, for whom a prison sentence and a conviction for a violent crime is a badge of honour. For whom, being told what to do and when every day, having a predictable and secure routine is probably something they crave...

It doesn't surprise me at all. I come across many cheeky 12 year olds and younger. They are bullies at school, most likely come from backgrounds where their parents don't care or act the same way...drugs, daft behaviour. They probably found the machete in their house owned by their dad or someone. I've said for years that they should lower the age for making then responsible. If a 12 year old murders, they know the difference between right and wrong and shouldn't just get off with that lightly

Terrible, feel very sorry for the 19 year old boy and for the 12 year olds, too. But. Someone older most definitely gave them the weapon or else left it unattended. Worse case - gang related crap where they had to "prove" themselves; or else - just screwed up neglected kids from the household where machete are easily accessible (again, probably gang connections).

I fear that we will see more and more of this.

Exactly you know the difference between right and wrong at that age.
And even a rough up bringing doesn't excuse killing someone.

Think parents should be investigated too. Little scumbags.

Also to add - kids know right from wrong, or course they do. But they have very little life experience, tend to be maximalist and also very often unquestionably adore their heroes - this kind of crime is not something that happens in a vacuum. These 12 year old have had a life where they have been exposed to some terrible stuff/ conditioned to think in a certain way. I really hope it gets properly investigated and the older person/ people who are, inevitably, will be behind it all are exposed and punished.

Rubbish, bad judgement is is pinching from a shop, murdering someone is a whole different level, it is evil.

@Icannoteven If we don’t ask the question of why and what leads people down this path we have absolutely no hope of fixing the problem I think @WiddlinDiddlin has it *I think they know its wrong, and they don't care.

They don't truly believe there will be severe consequences, and in all honesty, there won't be from their perspective.*

There isn't any and hasn't been for years, no consequences from parents, school and now the judicial system. And I believe that's what leads them down this path. They seem themselves as untouchable gods, and woe betide anyone who doesn't treat them as such.

Didn't they buy the knife for £40? This was a deliberate act, they were planning to use it, just waiting for someone innocent to cross their path.

I don't think they are unique, there is a culture where older boys are grooming younger boys and parents are not taking responsibility. The state needs to intervene and take over when parents are failing their children.

14! Is it? ‘The most dangerous age’ for what? Can you signpost me to some evidence please.

At least one of the boys was looked after by his gran.
One of the boys (possibly the same one) took a knife round to a girls house.

It's horrific. I work with kids like this and I think it will come out at the hearing that these kids are diagnosed with some additional needs. The kids I work with truly do not understand consequences. I am not making excuses, they truly do not have the capacity to understand if I do A then B is the natural consequence. Or if Miss tells me that if I do C, she will do D...it just passes their minds by.

@KitBumbleB do a lot of them have FAS? I've always thought that's a bit of an elephant in the room in the UK.