Why do people say ‘all the parties are as bad as each other’ ?

[Diefrausagtnein]

‘I can’t choose between them’
’Lesser of two evils’
It’s just so flipping cynical and pessimistic. And also lets the current lot off the hook who really have been terrible. Ed Davey and Keir Starmer for example seem fairly sensible and above all honest. Current lot haven’t been. Brexit, Covid corruption, austerity. Really how can other parties that haven’t been in power for 14 years, or ever for that matter, be as bad.

I haven’t RTFT, just skimmed, but it’s prompted me to look at who is standing in my area

we have Labour, LibDem, Conservative &Unionist Party, SDP (didn’t even realise they were still going) and Green.

2/5 candidates haven’t even bothered with any blurb

One lives so far out of the area (couldn’t get more polar opposite) so no idea what the reasoning is behind that.

Never heard of any of them, and the ones that have put a blurb up are pretty uninspiring.

Is there a none of the above option, as I can’t even pick the best out of a bad bunch.

Because they don't think things are going to magically get better with a Labour government. it's not about justifying voting Tory, it's about disappointment with the current Labour party (at least in people I know). People can look at what both parties have announced policy wise and not be keen on either. Tactical voting and anyone but the Tories has been a thing for a long time!

Calling people thick just because they don't give the answer you want isn't particularly constructive or helpful, And I don't see many posters saying anything actually illuminating or helpful to illustrate why they're so much better informed than someone who doesn't want to vote blue or red.

“Yes. What I can’t understand is how many wealthy home owning people over 60 voted to leave when they weren’t for one minute affected by the EU, particularly ones living in the south. If anything they were quite happy to use polish plumbers and Lithuanian builders.
Most people I know who voted to leave did it because they had nothing else to lose. Cameron had gutted the country (some parts of it anyway), they hated austerity, they despised Osbourne. Even hated Thatcher from years back. It was two fingers at the establishment even though we were told by them that it would crash the economy.”

Are you talking about the odd privileged 69er baby boomer sticking it up to the establishment in one last hoorah? Before they get wheeled off to a care home? Where there is now nobody left over to wipe their bum?

I think it is probably a bit of a cliche. The Brexit vote was primarily linked to level of education or lack thereof I thought rather than age alone?

I am a staunch Remainer. However, I fully accept our responsibility collectively in voting for Brexit. We all need to. No point in pointing the finger after the event.
What we need to ask is how do we get politics away from Reality TV show style Trumpism to sensible nerds having a rationale discussion like we witnessed on TV the other day. Personally, I trust either of the nerds more.
Hopefully we have had our populist time with Brexit and are ahead of the curve as compared to the rest of EU. Welcome back to the time of boring nerds in charge that pontificate and can’t do much damage. I will take that. But I will still vote Lib Dem - because I now fear any type of huge majority. Thanks to the Tories for that one.

@Araminta1003 as far as I know Evan Blair didn’t use public money to do this ?
He didn’t given millions of pounds to guys down the pub whose companies had never made a sterile mask in their lives. Or to Tory supporter Dyson whose ventilators were unfit for purpose.
Funnily enough isn’t the idea that the off spring of wealthy people use contacts to further their careers, often via public schools, fairly commonplace ?
Your comments about Brexit are ridiculous. I’m not accepting responsibility for it, no way. People were misled by dishonest propaganda encouraged by Tory leave MPs, most in the ERG. In fact the Tory party was infiltrated by Brexit party/UKIP members because they felt so comfortable with fellow Brexiteers.

@Iwrotethelyricstoaxlf - pick the least worse option for your value system. But please vote!

Isn’t it easy to seem sensible and honest when you’re not the one in power..

you can’t compare the two in the same way because we don’t know what labour would have been doing, could have been better, could have been worse.. there’s no way of knowing.

anyone can sit on the sidelines and criticise.. or pass judgement with the clarity of hindsight, it doesn’t mean they can and will do things any better.

@Diefrausagtnein - what has any of this got to do with public schools? Euan went to the poshest Catholic state school in London, no different. They are all at it, so what?

How can anyone in charge of a party (where there are tons of people within the party with different views all pulling in different directions) be totally honest when the definition of their job is too be diplomatic and somehow get that lot to agree amongst themselves and then sell it to the public as vaguely consistent?

@sandyhappypeople again the behaviour of the Conservative Party in government has been beyond parody. They’ve made lying and blatant corruption a commonplace activity. No sense of shame when found out. Too many incidents to recall. Look at the evidence of the Covid enquiry fgs.
An opposition party is specifically there to challenge those in government
surely ?

It's not though, is it?

Thatcherite reforms, neutering the unions and opening up markets was a clear ideological choice (whether you support it or not). Callaghan wouldn't have done it.

Blair massively growing public sector investment, ditto. Major wouldn't have done it.

Cameron/Osborne austerity, ditto. Brown wouldn't have done it.

The Brexit referendum, was really about Tory party management. I don't think Corbyn would have done it.

The Covid response was very distinctively Johnsonian (instinctive liberalism, distrust of technocracy, chaotic style).

The Tories have pretty much disintegrated since, but May was a very particular personality, and Truss even more so (which other leader in either party would have done her economic policies?), and Sunak.

Starmer and Corbyn quite different.

Alternative histories where we got David not Ed Miliband plausibly would have been extremely different (no Brexit?).

Do you think the above analysis is wrong, or that Thatcherism, Brexit, public sector investment (or not), etc have basically had no significant effect on life?

@Araminta1003 my point is that you bleat about how Euan used his contacts to gain business advantage and yet it’s what private school parents do all the time. Networking, using so and so’s dad to get work experience in the city or whatever. Why is there anything wrong with it ? You are on the private school VAT threads aren’t you so you’ve clearly got an opinion ?
At least he went to a state school in any case. Even the best secondary schools have issues. My kids go to a top 50 comp, they have huge social issues there, the kids aren’t all from wealthy families. What’s your point.

Of course he knew it wasn’t emergency care. I actually hope he was lying in saying he wouldn’t pay for medical treatment for a family member… let them wait in pain.. ☹️

@Diefrausagtnein - so now because I am passionate about Education and voting Lib Dem not Labour, I am not allowed to have an opinion?

The private school parent network is overdone. I went to Cambridge, I use my network all the time and the alumni network from work and Linked In and everyone I meet.
I am happy for Euan to use his as well. I just said it is what privileged people do. Not sure what schools and how they are funded have to do with any of it. Do away with public schools and people will still have a big network. It is the case in all countries all over the world, regardless of “private schools”.

Or in other words @Diefrausagtnein - my kids will get their network from me and DH and our extensive friendships and business connections. It has nought to do with where they go to school. The school network would only kick in once their mates actually are in senior management! By which point they have probably mostly lost touch and it will be their uni mates they network with, in any event. It is totally overegged.

And the aristos and global elite have their own network anyway. You are either one of them or you are not (ever heard of Google). Even if you get a bursary to Eton, you still will not be in their club. So what is the actual point you are making?

Why did you bring Euan Blair up to prove Labour are corrupt ?
That he used contacts to further his business. That’s nothing like the corruption and dishonesty that the current government have engaged in.
@Pottedpalm of course Sunak was honest about using private health care. He’s probably used it already. He’s undoubtedly got a job or ‘advisory position’ lined up with Kaiser Permanente.

Any intelligent adult realises that each party has benefits and drawbacks. And the two main parties don’t have radically different policies. Hence why people say they are the same - they are very similar.

you have said that you would support Labour no matter what. That’s fine but not everyone is the same as you. Lots of people are less tribal about politics

I actually said I generally vote for labour because historically our town has been left behind. Locally I vote Lib Dem.

There would be small differences yes, but not large ones. Eg the Labour Party of the70s were battling against the control and power of the union and Blair was happy to leave thatchers unions legislation in place. Major was already growing public sector investment but perhaps wouldn’t have done it as much as blair.

“Your comments about Brexit are ridiculous. I’m not accepting responsibility for it, no way. People were misled by dishonest propaganda encouraged by Tory leave MPs, most in the ERG. In fact the Tory party was infiltrated by Brexit party/UKIP members because they felt so comfortable with fellow Brexiteers.”

And this basically sums it all up -does it not. Poor poor people who got misled and do not have agency? Stop underestimating the general population and public. People vote and they voted this way (or least those who showed up). It was a close call. But the British public sadly voted for Brexit. And in 2019, the Labour Party put up Corbyn against Johnson despite Corbyn being unelectable. So they are also to blame.

We can all go on blaming each other forever more. Or we can move on and try and make this country better again. Whatever party that may be. This time it will be Labour, most likely.

I never said Euan is corrupt. I said he is privileged and used his network. He had a good idea and got funding, because he is privileged and has a good network. Starmer is also privileged and lives in a nice house in London. People are not bloody thick. They do not expect our Labour politicians to be poor. They know they have to be able to walk the walk and talk the talk with business.

It’s said by the politically illiterate as a way of not having to engage with actual policies, or do any actual thinking.

I don't think that's generally true. Many of the most politically illiterate are the tribal voters who are absolutely certain who they'll vote for and will not admit that there are bad points, blind spots, liars and incompetents in all parties.

People say 'They're all as bad as each other' out of frustration. Frustration at having to work out what is the least bad option instead of having a party you actively want to vote for. I'm not a tory. I would like to be able to vote for a Labour government, but haven't decided if I can vote for this one.

@Kendodd Most working people wanted the cheap labour that was provided by the foreign workers curbed. They wanted to be able to earn decent wages so we could live as a family in our community.
Trades people could not compete with the low prices charged by cash-in-hand blokes living in shared rooms and working 15 hours every day. Those guys had nothing else to do their families were a long way away. British living at home wanted to spend time at home and see their children.
Now we have to endure road blocks and demonstrations deemed peaceful that cause delay and inconvenience. Nobody cares,
Result,- only Reform offer to listen.

@PollyPeachum - but surely there won’t be any traditional Labour Voters voting Reform?

I just got a Reform leaflet through the door. I tore it up with great satisfaction.

Working class people absolutely deserve to be paid a fair working wage and have fair working conditions rather than being underestimated by traditional Labour policies and propped up with benefits and treated like slaves by Tories in a feudal way. I do understand the frustration. Despite my own privilege.
Society would be far better if there were less discrepancies between earners.

If you've lived through several rounds of Labour, Tory, Labour, Tory, etc, etc. You realise they all promise the earth but deliver very little. They spend the first term or two blaming the government they took over from on why they can't do what they promised, by which time they feel they don't need to stick to those promises any more because 'things have changed' over the last x years. So we vote them out and around we go again.

@User2460177 I think it's both (so I guess we agree). There are larger forces that shape all administrations, and a sort of pendulum when one approach has clearly failed.

But people still matter. I don't think Thatcher's reforms would have happened under another leader (perhaps over many decades). Brexit is the biggest one.

I suppose the fact that leaders often leave past policies in place could be an argument for either view. Perhaps that happens because it's larger forces. Or perhaps it's proof that individual leaders matter, because their major reforms often don't get overturned.

@Araminta1003 From reading the complaints about the treatment of women on some MN Threads many will not be voting for Labour, Greens have made fools of themselves over Palestine/Israel. A few candidates being investigated for tweets and soc med advocating violence. So will we still use Green as a Protest Vote?