It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

I cited it as an example of a school closing down and its impact - ie that there are now 450 children looking for school places, those doing GCSEs/A Levels - there are multiple others around the country who are expecting to close down.

What I find extraordinary is that with all the really serious pressing problems facing millions of people in the country MN users constantly start endless new threads about one small issue that affects what 7% of school students. When the chips are down forget about the col crisis climate change generation rent war health etc etc. let’s just hang on about the problem facing a wealthy minority.

@whovotestory

The point I was making on private healthcare insurance is that relatively many more people have it (usually through a work benefit) than say the number of people sending their children to private schools.

Both private education and private health insurance gives those with cash a benefit over the poorer. The difference is because relatively more people benefit from private healthcare then this is viewed as more "acceptable" and any proposal to say introduce VAT on private healthcare would be very unpopular.

In this world of polarised and entrenched political views sadly I think you are right that it is unlikely that we will agree on anything.But I thought I would give it a go.

"Hypothetically if the VAT policy on private school fees cost more to implement than it raised in taxes so that it actually became a net cost to tax payers then would you still support it?"

@Elvisthedonkey Oh come on, you are paying 60k in fees which is a pre tax income of approx 90k just for fees.

We are not swimming in cash - we just put it all towards private education

You would be thousands of pounds better off each month but you have spent it on fees. Your choice but you are not hard done by.

(a couple of months’ salary-worth).
Which must be fairly significant.

I still think you are anomaly in terms of having so little other assets.

it is 100% the politics of envy.

Yes, the parents who can no longer afford PE seem very bitter about those that still can…

But as I said it's not the priority criteria in lots of areas so it's disingenuous for people to claim state schools will be overwhelmed due to everyone buying up property next to good schools.

The schools got wise to this year's ago thankfully.

@Pollipops1 What? That last statement is a complete non-sequitur.

There won't be an influx. Less than 6% of children in the UK go to private school. Even if ALL of them were to leave and go to state school tomorrow, that wouldn't even work out to an extra 2 children (assuming a class of 30).

And despite what everyone on mumsnet claims, people who send their kids to private school aren't stoney broke. If they already have a spare 20k a year, an extra 4k won't be that hard to find (probably more like 2-3k as schools are likely to absorb some of the costs).

I would estimate an absolute maximum of 10% of private school children will be taken out due to fees, so 0.6% of all children. A vanishingly small amount and nowhere near enough to push classroom sizes up to 40 in every school across the country. Use your head OP.

Sending my DC to private school is the main reason I work so hard and such long hours in a job I absolutely hate. I’m not sure we can afford the extra £18k per year and if I end up sending them to state school instead, I’d cut my hours right back or do something else (less well paid) entirely. How does that help anyone?

It sounds like it would help you, why do a job you hate? Life is short.

And why am I so determined to send them to private school? Because I went to an inner city state secondary school and I know just how bad they are.

So did I and DH & I don’t think it’s done us any harm. I loved school. There are some great state schools.

It won't be the seismic shift it's being claimed it will be in terms of impact on state schools. But it will mean an extra £1.3bn per year to begin bringing the state sector up to standard. Honestly, this has been done to death. They'll implement the policy, private schools will find savings to avoid passing on the costs to parents, we all move on with more money in the coffers to improve state education. This affects way less than 7% of the parent/child population. The impact is being massively overstated by a tiny number of very loud voices.

But even being in catchment doesn't guarantee a place, if the school is oversubscribed they will apply the admissions policy criteria and these can change. Moving house is a risky strategy!

@Elvisthedonkey I keep seeing posters complaining that only the “super rich” will be able to afford it and the poorer parents are getting priced out. Now they are priced out the system is unequal and unfair! Sounds like the politics of envy to me.

Firstly, the number of privately educated children isn't that large. Even if there is a considerable exodus, this could balance out to one new child per class, which is hardly going to break the system.

Secondly, one suspects that the number of families who genuinely can't afford to pay an extra 20% is actually rather lower than the propagandists are trying to persuade us.

Still nonsensical.

@LittleBearPad

"Easy enough to change the legislation or in fact write it to prevent avoidance given it will be new rules

Anyone handing over fees in advance to avoid VAT is taking a significant credit risk and tax risk"

Perfectly valid point on the credit risk.

On changing the rules to VAT so it is due at the point of receipt of a service or goods rather than at the point of payment. Then do you only have this rule for private school fees or for everything else? It would be impossible to implement.

On backdating - to implement a new tax backdated to a time when a different government was in charge would create a precedent that would set alarm bells going off for anybody looking to invest in the UK.

I think it's good. I think it will push the private school market to be more accessible.

how would you have felt about having to leave a school you were very happy at because your parents can no longer afford it?

We haven’t ruled out private secondary & my calculations have forecasted big increases regardless of VAT due to fee increases and potential issues around the TPS. I wouldn’t even entertain the idea without a significant buffer.

Labour are choosing to hit professional job families who already have been hit by things like loss of child benefit, loss of annual personal tax allowance, who have 9% student loan/tax and high childcare costs and whoa re often net payers into the system - the kinds of people Labour might want to encourage to carry on working to pay a lot of tax - not to be hitting them with 8k - £10k a year for 2 children extra VAT out of income already taxed at high rates.

I'm not worried. My kid goes to a good state school and is getting a bit of additional help for suspected ADHD.

His school is full, though. So the private school kids would have to go to the school over the road. It requires improvement, but there are plenty of spaces.

Still nonsensical.

Like most of your posts then…

But why should this extra funding for state schools be found by putting an unbelievably heavy burden on that “tiny number”? Why not have everyone in the country pay a tiny bit more to fund it?

If the cost becomes prohibitive for us we’ll leave the UK and move to Australia (dual citizens) and put our children in private there. Then the government won’t get any of our tax money 🤷🏻‍♀️

Good one

@Xenia That’s my family although out of the childcare years. I will still be voting labour though.

Although controversially I think CB should be universal like it was in the past.

It's not an "unbelievably heavy burden". It's the tax that all of us have to pay on certain goods and services, being extended to one service that people only ever access for a few years of their lives.