It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

I would absolutely be in favour of policies to level the playing field within the state sector via a lottery system or similar. I would also get rid of grammar schools and faith schools etc. I want all children to have access to comparable opportunities.

@Motheroffourdragons

"Also the tax man will likely come after you for tax evasion."

An interesting point and it all comes down to intent and probability.

Now many private school parents have historically pre paid fees because of discounts available and for peace of mind in securing their children's education.

HMRC would have to prove that the intent was solely to avoid taxes.

Secondly on probability - there is currently no VAT on fees, it is simply a policy by a political party that may get elected. It would be the same as me stock piling sanitary products because for some reason I thought that VAT might be reintroduced in them at some point in the future - is this tax evasion?

Lastly there is a big difference between tax avoidance and evasion. Some years ago when there was a cut in stamp duty and then an announcement that it was going back up, there was a rush to complete on house purchases before the stamp duty went up. Is this tax evasion or tax avoidance?

VAT is chargeable at the point of payment rather than receipt of the service or goods. Pre paying school fees was happening before the VAT policy announcement.

Yes, I think it would greatly improve those schools.

It's absolutely relevant as this keeps getting trotted out as a reason why it's a bad policy, completely ignoring the fact it actually can't happen in many areas.

Those damn facts getting in the way of the hyperbole.

Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds

This won’t happen-there are lots of spaces in state schools. The spaces in schools with low rolls will fill up, each child bringing with them a few thousand pounds, so schools will have more money.

But many many people will just continue to keep their kids in private.

One of my friends took her child out of private school due to horrendous bullying and sent him to the local comprehensive where he has flourished.

Lots of people on here are being very London centric. Our dc were in a villsge secondary school which was rated Outstanding and which had good results and superb pastoral care. It also had many more pupils on FSM than other local secondaries, and some of the cheapest housing around within its catchment. It covered about 15 villages I think, with a wide range of house prices and social housing.

I’m not sure we’re just talking about Scotland though, are we? You must know of people in other parts of the country where the situation isn’t the same as yours.

@MinervaMcGonagallsCat "I wonder if a single person has been persuaded"

It's certainly a topic on the doorstep where I live.

@Elvisthedonkey what about my question implied I didn’t believe it? I’m fully aware of PE fees. My point was more if you are already paying ££££ in fees I wouldn’t class you as someone who can only afford PE by sacrificing.

Certainly ime most don’t fund 90k of PE solely from income and those that do are earning a very high amount. Both groups will often have other investments to fall back on or family assistance. Your experience may be different though.

It's probably swinging things the other way.

It isn’t all about numbers though, is it? There are a huge amount of children who attend independent schools because the state system can’t/won’t cater for them (additional needs etc). What’s to happen to these children - and the children in the classes they enter when the teacher’s focus is absorbed with a child who is struggling with the environment?

If you think private school parents will send their children to rough schools, you are mad! No way will this happen. People would homeschool or set up free schools before allowing that.

@Motheroffourdragons

"Because you like your house and want to stay there?"

True there will definitely be people of that view. But it is equally true that the higher house prices are in a particular area compared to similar houses in a nearby area then that will tempt more people to sell up in the higher priced area (assuming they don't have children in the sought after local school) increasing the number of properties for sale.

And they are more than welcome
to Home school. Setting up a free school s a huge amount of time, money and work to provide a good education, but of course, they are welcome to do that as well.

What we do know is that the numbers starting private schools this September is 3% lower than last year.

Birth rates, fee increases & COL will have had an impact here though not just proposed

Easy enough to change the legislation or in fact write it to prevent avoidance given it will be new rules

Anyone handing over fees in advance to avoid VAT is taking a significant credit risk and tax risk

@Beenquee

I’m not sure we’re just talking about Scotland though, are we? You must know of people in other parts of the country where the situation isn’t the same as yours.

We are talking about the UK of which Scotland is part. Your assumptions about grammar schools and catchment areas do not apply in all parts of the UK. You must know that im other parts of the country the situation is not the as yours?

there will be some movement but the bigger change will be the number of those not starting at all - so the next few years will see the most turbulence - state schools not being ready for the higher numbers particularly in terms of SEN requirements / funding

This will happen regardless

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/apr/11/english-schools-could-lose-1bn-by-2030-as-pupil-numbers-fall

As ever on these threads we have Schrodinger's private school parents who simultaneously can't afford to pay the VAT but can afford to drive up house prices around the good schools. There will be handful of parents who pull out and move to state but most will continue.

😆

People will buy houses near good schools. Catchment is not an issue for some schools and absolutely key for others - some schools do not offer places outside the catchment.

@Pollipops1 It is all out of my hard-earned income. We have zero investments and very small savings (a couple of months’ salary-worth). We are not swimming in cash - we just put it all towards private education.

If they genuinely wanted to raise more tax to fund state schools, why not add an extra 1% on income tax or CGT or corporation tax or VAT? That would bring in a hell of a lot more and be a hell of a lot fairer. Why is it just private school parents who are having to fund this? The collateral damage is children’s lives - how would you have felt about having to leave a school you were very happy at because your parents can no longer afford it? It is not fair and it’s not right. And it’s barely going to raise any money in any event.

it is 100% the politics of envy.

I wouldn't get rid of faith schools but I'd make sure they had to be paid for. I imagine if that were the case (most schools catholic here) that people wouldn't be bothered. That way, everyone has choice.

If you were told that you will be taxed an extra £4k a year for something that clearly makes no sense. Especially in the case of special needs children, who will have their lives severely disrupted and their education put in serious jeopardy, and you don't have an extra 4 grand a year. How would you feel?

Near me there is a primary school that had a terrible reputation. Absolutely no parent wanted their child to go there so generally speaking only those kids whose parents who didn't have time/ understand the system/ care got sent there.

Then some demographic changes happened in the area. It got gentrified and loads of young families. Suddenly this school was the only viable choice for many people. So they campaigned with the council, invested time and energy into the school and wider community and after a while the school got an Outstanding Ofsted. Obviously it wasn't as straightforward as that but to me it is clear demonstration that if you have skin in the game and you agitate for change and improvement standards are raised.

Getting more aspirational parents will help improve failing schools. That's good for individual schools, good for all students and good for the community as a whole.

Interesting that your options are £45k per child per year (presumably boarding) or an inner city state school of which you know nothing but assume must be the worst place on earth.

If only there was a middle ground…