It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

It’s a key criteria in plenty of areas and some schools (and some MNers) are sticklers for students to live within the area or no chance.

The issue will not affect the majority of the country but it will affect London and the SE where the majority of private schools are. In inner London 10-50% of kids are in private schools in all but 2 boroughs.

It will simply increase oversubscription to the best state schools in the areas, which isn’t a massive deal of itself, but, as would-be private school parents will be able to afford coaching for the exams, it may end up penalising bright disadvantaged kids.

Exactly this. Which is why if they keep hitting us, we personally will give the finger to the government and take our money elsewhere overseas

I don't disagree that private school is a luxury, and that the number of children in poverty (mostly caused by the Tory 2 child benefit cap) is an outrage which should be getting more attention.

But I think it's also worth acknowledging that the people who are most likely to be impacted by the policy are not the really well off but the subset of parents who have moved their child because of bullying or unsupported SEN. They're much more likely to have been overstretching themselves because they didn't know what else to do to help their kid, and therefore 20% VAT will probably tip them over the edge.

I think the OP's point is fair. We should demand transparency into the thinking behind the policy (assumptions, logic, etc), as well as accountability for the impact (KPIs, etc). This is true regardless of which policy and opinion we have on the matter.

I really don't understand why people aren't demanding better from their state schools? Where is your anger? Demand better. Don't just mindlessly hand over amounts equivalent to house deposits for a service that should be provided for through your taxes!

Which is why we have approached a local tutor with an excellent track record, who doesn’t take on tutees unless she feels they have a good chance in passing the 11+. Tutors around here can pick and choose who they take on, it’s a very lucrative business! We are not private school parents, and won’t be now. But we are fairly confident we will get our grammar school place. It’s worth paying for tuition versus the inflated school fees.
Most parents I know are planning the same.

@BigCroc I understand how tutoring works. I was just making the point that not every private school dc would qualify for a grammar place.

@NImumconfused I would be in favour of dc with EHCPs having some sort of VAT exemption/discount.

One could equally say if you can’t afford 20% increase in utilities you can’t afford gas, and that’s true for many people. The reality is many people, whether kids are in state or private, live on a tight budget. VAT will not affect the very wealthy at all, it will impact less well off families making sacrifices to prioritise education - immigrants working 3 jobs etc. All it really does is entrench privilege.

It won't be a "huge number" going into the state system. If they have additional needs that can't be met in maintained mainstream schools, they should be asking for EHCPs. If they can persuade the LA or tribunal to name the private school, they won't have to pay VAT. If they can't, there will be funding for whichever school they do go to to meet their needs.

@Mirabai London has a huge issue with falling rolls & the best states are generally already oversubscribed.

@Ws2210

"I would estimate an absolute maximum of 10% of private school children will be taken out due to fees, so 0.6% of all children. A vanishingly small amount and nowhere near enough to push classroom sizes up to 40 in every school across the country. Use your head OP"

Personally I would put the figure closer to 20%but let's go with your 10% figure.

Currently 615,000 children at private schools in the UK.
If 10% leave this equals 61,000 children
The amount the VAT proposal aims to raise is £1.3 billion, but if 10% leave then it will only be £1.17 billion.
However you now need to pay for the state education of 61,000 ex private school children at a cost of £7,460 per child or £455 million.
So the net tax raised is now only £715 million.

However this doesn't take into consideration those parents that have avoided VAT by pre paying or the amounts of VAT to be reclaimed by schools for the last ten years.

It is hard to see this policy raising any net taxes and it is generally a dumb fiscal policy for a tax to cost more to implement than it raises.

They are oversubscribed and now they will be even more so. The families who can pay for tutoring will be at an advantage.

The issue will not affect the majority of the country but it will affect London and the SE where the majority of private schools are. In inner London 10-50% of kids are in private schools in all but 2 boroughs.

Is this old data?

Can you imagine a party saying that it wants to improve state schools, but rather than ask poor private school parents to pay any more they have decided to raise taxes instead?

No, me neither.

VAT won't be chargeable on fees for children in private schools under EHCPs.

@Mirabai parents who chose a grammar already tutor. Plenty of dc in private’s also have a tutor. Some of the best schools in London are faith ones, how will tutoring help then?

So much othering

Who are "these parents"? Don't all parents want the best for their child? Our catchment secondary is not a good school. I am from a working class background and suffered horribly through my teenage years. I was absolutely crippled with anxiety attending a school where children put lit fireworks in other children's bags. It was awful. If my parents could have removed me they would have.

I've worked my way up into a high paying career and my husband (who had a similar experience to mine at an equally dreadful secondary) and I are sending our son to a private school.

Why would we send him to an under-performing state school with bullying and violence problems when we don't have to? Fortunately we won't be affected by any proposed tax but I feel sorry for parents who have removed their children from similar state schools and are just managing to keep their kids in private education.

www.scis.org.uk/information-for-parents/potential-for-vat-on-fees/

After a child tried to set my 8 year old DN’s hair on fire with a lighter the state school involved couldn’t suspend or even expel him or even contact the police. There was a legal challenge that forced their hand. All of the kids in his year were pulled out in protest but nothing changed. Look at what happened to Brienna Gehy — she was murdered by a child whose original school couldn’t expell her. Same thing when the 13 year old kids threw a piece of cheese at that boy who had a known allergy to it.

At DS’ private school an older boy tried to push a younger child and was suspended on the spot and the only reason why he wasn’t expelled was because the younger child’s parents stepped in.

State schools need to get better at getting police involved during criminal acts & also at permanently expelling evil kids. Until they do there is no way in hell I’ll send my kids. If I get to the stage I can’t afford private school I’ll homeschool and pay for enrichment activities.

How are there 450 children looking for places? It had 365 pupils when inspected in January 2022, and it had to close due to a falling school roll.

VAT will not affect the very wealthy at all, it will impact less well off families making sacrifices to prioritise education - immigrants working 3 jobs etc. All it really does is entrench privilege.

So the inequality wasn’t an issue until they can no longer afford it?

@Scruffily An extra £18K a year IS an unbelievably heavy burden, on top of the tax I already pay. Education is NOT and never has been treated as a “luxury” on which VAT is charged. If we were still in the EU, under EU law the government wouldn’t even be able to charge VAT on private schools with charitable status (that is most of them). That is how controversial this is.

There are plenty of rich parents who send their children to state school - why should they not have to pay extra to fund state schools? Private school parents are the ones already relieving the state of the burden of having to fund the education of our children.

Labour are just going to make the rich leave the country (an entirely viable option for me by the way) or stop working so hard - because honestly what is the point?

Good luck with that. The cost of living in Australia is a lot higher.

Not necessarily. Some do some don’t. Depends if they can afford it - which is the point.

Well that's your choice, and sorry for all the awful stuff that happened to you, but until people en masse demand better, nothing will change. Home schooling won't change it, private schooling won't change it either. People really have to protest if the state schools are that bad. It has to be reflected in votes come election time, and raised with anyone who knocks on the door. I can't see how private schools are the answer tbh. It's a bit like saying 'well, at least I got in the lifeboat ' and ignoring everyone else on the Titanic.