It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

That is your narrative, it is not what my local research has shown up. Whether there are school places and how many required, is going to depend on the area you live. If there are many private schools (and lots of kids who attend them), you can assume the problem will be larger than areas where there are very few private schools. It will also depend on the size and number of local state schools and if there is potential for them to grow. For many schools in London this will not be possible. As I've said, please feel free to draw me to the proposed school expansion plan, I'm all ears?

Exactly, its absolute nonsense, I'm starting to wonder if @wombat15 is Bridget Phillipson's campaign intern. I notice no one on this thread has any details of Labour's school expansion plan? There are no spaces in our local greater London primaries, just waiting lists.

Why would people on this thread have details of labours school expansion plan?

Yes, but people will need those spaces where they are currently based, not in Yorkshire or wherever the Labour party intend to shepherd our young. The idealism you have demonstrated is utterly bewildering and not backed by any factual argument that has been presented so far.

Well if there is a proposed plan, someone should have heard about it, right? That's how basic party campaigning works: they pitch ideas to us, backed up data and a specific strategy to deliver them? That's the missing bloody bit, the strategy to deliver any of this.

And private school parents don’t worry - some politician has already rung his mates to set up a free luxury state online school for the lot of you so you can all keep working from home. Your kids weren’t allowed to go to school during Covid either, only key workers. You know people who do the real jobs, not you lot pushing capital.
And the Council will pay for extra curricular and mental health. The Labour Party will deliver. It’s been promised. I heard it discussed at a dinner party in London last night. It must be true.
Now relax and watch the show unfold.

Please explain again what your research has involved? It sounded like you haven't been able to get much information because you aren't actually applying for a space and they have got better things to do with their time than answer your questions like help genuine people who need a space for their child. .

I am very sceptical that there is going to be a sudden mass exodus from private to state. They won't need to grow state schools if the birth rate is falling. They can just temporarily increase the size for a year or two.

No, the hand-wringing over the private sector being asked to potentially make savings in order to lessen the impact of 20% VAT on private school fees.

Where did I say I was being charged twice? What I said is that we are taxed based on income (2 high rate tax payers in our house), so our approximately 5k contribution to state education has already been made. If you are self-funding that contribution is given with no expectation of anything in return. Those with large families and low incomes are taking without giving back. They are needing 3-4 school places at 5k each, that is a drain to the state unless the high tax bracket is met. I don't think a fortune teller is required, just a calculator.

I'm sure someone will be a long to give details of labour plans once you give details of the Tories plans, backed up with data and specific strategies to deliver. Perhaps start by explaining how national service is going to work?

This report estimates up to 25% of kids will leave private sector:
https://www.adamsmith.org/research/short-term-thinking-analysing-the-effect-of-applying-vat-to-school-fees
I have called my local admissions office and they advised there aren't empty places for schools in our borough, just waiting lists. Would you like me to do this for each London Borough? We are applying for a space, but are ready for a very long wait, but also to see if Labour's intentions are underpinned by any strategy to get kids into state schools, rather than merely a threat. How do you temporarily make classes bigger? Buildings are defined sizes, they don't all have huge grounds, so can't necessarily fluctuate, creating temporary structures requires space to build and money.

The Tories don’t have to have plans, they are out. That’s the luxury of being in opposition or a minority party, no plans required. But Labour do have to have exact plans and costings. It’s a fair enough question for the Private Schexit issue.

The Tories are not out until they are voted out. Labour are the opposition. That means only the Tories need exact plans and costings, and Labour don't need to publish anything for another month.

@wombat15 - the Labour Party need to show us they will be better and can actually run the country. So we absolutely need a plan and costings. Especially when it comes to school children some of whom have SEN, 100k to be precise.

Just because a rightwing ThinkTank with dodgy funding has estimated 25% kids will leave the private sector, it doesn't mean that will happen and it certainly doesn't indicate it will happen straight away.

As for schools, they can temporarily increase class sizes for a bit if they need to.

Incorrect @wombat15 - you can’t criticise the Tories for not having an adequate pandemic plan or outdated PPE- when Covid was a one in a hundred year occurrence and not as reasonably foreseeable as introducing a penalty on school children inciting an exodus and having no plan to deal with it! It’s worse! You are doing it deliberately. Make a plan!

@80smonster ,

I am not totally convinced you are posting in good faith and have any real concerns about a real child but schools are funded per pupil and, if the pupil numbers increase, they will get more funding and be able to increase teachers etc.

Pupils won’t all leave at once and I suspect that it will be far fewer than people think.

The actual VAT is 15% (due to 5% being reclaimable), building expenditure may reduce this further, and schools will absorb some costs. Most well run schools have been building war chests for a few years.

Yes, fee rises will exceed inflation and a few will leave, but that is the status quo ante for private schooling for the last decade.

"Not charge those who don’t use them twice."

I didn't say anything about covid. What are you talking about?

It's intersting how u think labour should be held to a higher standard than the Tories. Why don't the Tories don't need to show that they are better than labour or do you just vote for them anyway?

Well, yes, but that doesn't mean that people are happy with the state of the State sector. It's the fact a that, not content with not having kept up even minimal standards in their own sector, the government then goes after the private sector, which has been doing its best to keep up standards, and tries to wreck that too. That's what's so infuriating about it.

If I pay most of my salary to a school and their roof was falling in, I'd want to know what they were doing with my money. But pay 40% of my salary to the government, and there's no accountability.

I don’t vote Conservative, never have done. I used to vote Labour and then I switched to Lib Dem when it was Corbyn.

The Covid inquiry and the lack of planning and execution is part of the reasons people dislike the Tories and Brexit, of course and the shambolic way they implemented that. That is why they are now out.

The Labour Party must absolutely at least make voters think they will be better than the Tories. Otherwise what will all the swing voters do? This country is full of swing voters. If it were not, we would not have the yo-yoing between Blue and Red.

Expansion plans... presumably they will use the tried and tested formula of mobile classrooms, merging year groups, rotating an extra intake around local schools and similar.

This has been going on for decades in state schools. Obviously if you have been in the private sector, you may never have experienced classes of 45 children because they had to merge 50% of one class or year group into a other. Obviously none of this is ideal but it is possible and nothing new.

The private school population is less than 10% of the national school-going population and not all of them will leave the private sector anyway.

Most children won't leave. It won't happen on July 5th

“The actual VAT is 15% (due to 5% being reclaimable), building expenditure may reduce this further, and schools will absorb some costs. Most well run schools have been building war chests for a few years.”

That is simply not true. My colleague showed me a letter from her DS’ private school specifically stating they have to pass the VAT on and they currently estimate for their school it will be 18% VAT and only because they did a ton of buildings projects and this is a relatively rich school (I think). They also have hardly any reserves and a deficit for teacher pensions she says which they are trying their best to catch up on. Whatever that means. In fact, the wrote to say that fees will increase by X this year and next year if VAT is implemented it will be X plus 18% on top of that.