It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

I do not get why they cannot just provide reassurance to private school parents to guarantee places in local state schools and come up with an action plan and emergency funding for state schools that Councils will be able to tap into. And a promise in that regard. Surely this will help all of us with children? It will cost whatever it costs, but they have to have a bloody plan to deal with it. And if they do not, and it all goes horribly wrong, then they will get the blame and there will be an enquiry. So why not just plan properly? It is in their interests to do so.

There are a lot of reasons that people don't want the Tories in power and they will vary from person to person. I doubt that the first concern of most people is whether there will be VAT on private schools fees.

@wombat15 - people will be very very concerned if their local state schools become worse under Labour and if things deteriorate further. And their child does not get a place in secondary and the catchment suddenly shrinks for the better schools. That most definitely will affect the even more vocal majority.

People don't believe that state schools will be worse under labour though.

I am not sure if we are talking at cross purposes. But my point was that no private sector parent was starting (or engaging with) multiple threads on the amount of belt-tightening that state schools have had to do to meet ever decreasing budgets.
The second it is suggested that private schools might tighten their belt so as to lessen the impact of 20% VAT on fees, the amount of angst goes through the roof.

Going slightly off topic but to respond to your latter point, I am not saying that the state schools are a paragon of virtue but can you appreciate that after a decade of cuts, where schools have had to choose between teachers' pay, educational resources and building maintenance, it is not wholly surprising that the roof is literally falling in, in some cases.
Where exactly are state schools supposed to in the face of such impossible expectations.

Incidentally, school budgets and accounts are publicly available. As is the funding formula, the schools census results and a myriad of other stuff.

I'm a 40% tax payer too and I pay a chunk of corporation tax, I would also like some accountability of the last 14 years of Conservative government. Such as, where was the detailed costing for the Brexit mess? Whose idea was it to award a shipping contract to a company with no ships etc etc... I suspect I will be waiting a long time.

@Araminta1003 "I do not get why they cannot just provide reassurance to private school parents to guarantee places in local state schools "
Because they don't know how many there will be, where the parents concerned will live, what special circumstances there might be. LEAs have a commitment to provide a school place. Not in which school and where. The same applies to everyone.

“But my point was that no private sector parent was starting (or engaging with) multiple threads on the amount of belt-tightening that state schools have had to do to meet ever decreasing budgets.
The second it is suggested that private schools might tighten their belt so as to lessen the impact of 20% VAT on fees, the amount of angst goes through the roof.”

In my DC’s state schools we all rallied to volunteer more and do as much as we can personally and some of us have been making donations per month on top of raising funds for the PTA regularly, doing match funding etc etc. And local MPs have been lobbying to increase funding per child as our Borough is pretty shockingly low. So we have been doing that! And we have been complaining on MN for years about quality issues as well. So what is your point?

@CurlewKate - some of the private school parents have been told by LEAs there are no places. This is an anomalous situation. They are not all applying at 4 plus and 11 plus or 16 plus as is standard. They had their own plans and now they have to suddenly change course due to a new Government’s ideology and they have been told this will happen sooner rather than later. But they have also been told there is no plan and that apparently they can afford this anyway. Some can’t so they need to move their DCs (and I think some do not want to pay up anymore if they have to pay tax on top of it). But they do not know where to go. Because there are no places. And they are being gaslit. You’re crazy -of course you can afford it, just pay up!
Give them assurance and promises of extra funding for local schools where there will be need and it well help all state schools and there is actually some hope that this VAT business will lead to better education for all.

You cannot have a disincentive to do something without a parallel incentive to steer their behaviour in another direction. Otherwise it is clear that this is a divisive policy within the Labour Party itself- one lot of them want to only do it if it makes money/does not cost loads, the other lot want to do it regardless as long as kids actually move, irrespective of how much it costs. And as a result private school parents and some of us in areas with oversubscribed state schools are being gaslit!

You don't know what threads private school parents have posted on. If people want to start threads about the standards of education more general, nobody is stopping them. It just seems like people don't care that much about education, except teachers (who post often), until it comes to the issue of private schools, and then suddenly they're upset that some people have it better.

I'm not blaming school governors for the problems in the private sector. I'm blaming the government. Of course governors and head teachers do the best for their school, whichever sector they are in.

Most parents take schools into consideration when they choose where they live? Why didn't you think about it before? Seems a bit short sighted.

Perhaps the campaign by private school parents to put their children's name down for a place in a state school even if they don't want a place is backfiring and is hurting those who genuinely do want a place.

@wombat15 - what campaign? I have read about the threats to do so, but at least where I live in year admissions lists close some time in July anyway. So they would have to reapply formally in September. I doubt they have actually applied properly and submitted all their documents and council tax etc this side of July.

@wombat15 - what campaign? I have read about the threats to do so, but at least where I live in year admissions lists close some time in July anyway. So they would have to reapply formally in September. I doubt they have actually applied properly and submitted all their documents and council tax etc this side of July. Sounded more like FOI type requests and calling a manned line.

There have been threads on here and a Facebook group. They might not have done anything formally but even from this thread it is clear some people are wasting admission's teams time.

I dont understand if these parents have actually applied for a place as an in-year transfer or just called to find out if there are places?

If parents actually apply they will be allocated school places in the normal way. If there are none and the child has no school the LA has a duty to provide a suitable education.

Lots of send children end up with tutors for a few hours a week and online school when there is no school place. We had no school place for over a year.

So I assume it would be the same for the private pupils funding themselves with no schooling.

SEND children are also expected to travel quite long distances, so again I assume if the LA can get a minibus full to a school further away that has spaces, that's what would happen. Then finally they might do bulge classes and portacabins etc.

I guess in terms of seeking assurance. The law is the LA has to sort it. Sorting it might not look ideal, but it is how many families are already treated and they can't really predict exactly what will happen despite all these models. Solutions will be quite individual. I do think LAs are thinking about it though even if they haven't got a fully formed plan.

Taking emotion and morals out of it, my worry about this private school policy is that we are going to lose useful Labour votes.

I know many wealthy people who want the Tories out. They are probably what people call champagne socialists. They have some liberal left-wing ideas but send their kids to private school etc. I have met quite a few who said they were going to vote Labour in order to get the Tories out but they are not now simply because of the private school issue.

It is a shame as I think there are quite a lot of people in this group and it would have been really important to get their vote for the Labour Party. For me, getting rid of the Tories is more important than charging VAT on school fees, as I think continued continued conservative rule is the biggest threat to state education.

Catchments change each year in London/Greater London, so with the best will in the world, it can be hard where development is rife, to have much control. One block of flats going up can put another road out of catchment within months. If Labour has a sound strategy to secure all these children the additional places required (or develop new structures), they have been entirely tight lipped about it.

I agree. I’m not sure that this policy is gaining them many votes at all. How many people are planning to vote for them purely because of this policy? Very few. If they dropped the policy, would they lose any votes? I doubt it.

However, with this policy in place, they are alienating many potential voters.

I genuinely would have looked at the Labour policies and considered voting for them, as many Conservative voters did with Blair. However, with this policy in place, I absolutely cannot consider voting for them.

I think the policy is losing them more votes than it’s gaining.

So live somewhere else? Living in a densely populated area and expecting school places to appear when it suits you is stupid. You're not nailed in place.

We're all allowed to hang up on/refuse calls from vexatious callers.

Many families have no choice but to use the state system. I say that as someone who was state educated. Surely a better solution is to make the state provision better, so that everyone has access to a great state education, regardless of postcode. We should not be telling people they have to move house to access a state school. What about job commitments? Living near family? Caring commitments?

Sorry I disagree. It just isn't reasonable to expect endless school places to appear in London. If a parent applies at the usual times, or uses the in year admissions procedure, they will be allocated a school place. That poster is unwilling to do this, so moving house is the only other solution.

Obviously, I am not counting or tracking every single thread but surely you can see that there aren't lots of private school parents bemoaning the year-on-year cuts in state schools enough to start the volume of threads we have seen recently about VAT on private school fees.

(Granted these parents might have been very concerned about state schools at the point they made their decision to go private, though)

I'm not sure people are upset that "some people have it better"
Perhaps they just feel the injustice of the disproportionate fuss about this particular issue which affects less than 10% of the school-going population, especially when there doesn't seem to be similar level of outrage about the long-term erosion of state school budgets.

I am in the demographic of families that can choose state vs private and make that choice consciously at 11 plus. Before that it is invariably state primary and often state selective again at 16 plus.
People I know either tutor or move to the right catchment for state secondary and many pay up because their DC have some form of SEN.

There are also plenty of people in my demographic who went private precisely because they didn’t get a school allocated during the baby boom years at all or a rubbish one miles away. To now tell these people that they have to pay VAT or those with DCs with SEN is pretty outrageous all round! So of course these people are angry, I totally understand why.
On the face of it some of us look well off due to good salaries nationally speaking, But given the high housing costs in London most are not unless you expect them to sell their 3 bed terraced house and move to the sticks somewhere. Is that the plan? Drive even more families out of London?

Imagine for a moment that the government said 'School finances are in a terrible state, the roof is falling in, classrooms are overcrowded, so every parent has to pay £58 per week, per child. Surely you've all got £58 per week to spare? What are you complaining about? Sure, you already pay 20 or 40% tax and all we're asking for is another £58.' How would you feel about it?