It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

I asked our local admissions office, just so others reading can keep up:

1. Can you tell me which schools have spaces? No, they don’t really have spaces - they have waiting lists
2. Can you tell me the waiting list size for x 5 of our local schools? No, they could not, I could apply to some schools directly (in some instances the school holds the list), however neither the admissions department or the school would confirm my child’s place the queue. Previously they did do this in 2019, when I last asked.
3. Do local admissions hold a list of free spaces? Hypothetically the answer to this was yes, however in reality, they don’t have any spaces - they have spaces cropping up via in-year transfers. Hence schools directly being the likeliest to have this information.
4. If a waiting list was 125 strong, in a 2 form entry school, what are the chances of being admitted? Highly improbable I was told in 2019. Yesterday I was told they do not know or have all the lists.

A lot of people are focusing on getting future children into Grammar school instead of private but the immediate effect of private schools losing Charitable status and hence requiring to pay VAT is that youngsters currently in private schools where parents can't afford to pay any longer may find it hard to find a place in a nice and or good state school. I'm broadly in favour of the move but I would think introduce it no earlier than Sept 2025 and allowing no tax for pupils in years 11 and 13 in school year 25/26 would mean no young person would have to leave private mid GCSE or A level courses. The 12 month delay would also allow parents to decide if to enter their children for exams for private schools in September 2025.

So in 2019 had you applied for a place.

Now you just want to know without applying?

Having large families on universal credit and other types of benefits isn’t cutting it either. That’s why we have an education, health and highway crisis all for once. The issues are manifest in our dense population, with not enough meeting the net contribution, allowing the state to have funds to top-up our services. Those already self-funding are leaving 5k approx per child, which governments could choose to sink back into education. The taxes are being collected and distributed to many via benefits, with not enough to fund health and education.

It’s nothing to do with charitable status.

Yes in 2019 we applied for a reception place, which is a different process as you are going through mass clearance. This time it would be an in year transfer. I’m guessing lots of kids leaving private school will be in year transfers also, excepting those who were leaving this July, for their secondary destinations.

So in 2019 you had questions about your actual waitlist place.

Now you have hypothetical questions because you haven’t applied.

You do see there’s a difference?

You'l find that they're still dealing with Year 7 and Reception admissions at the moment (along with the standard In Year/Fair Access/etc applications). Add in potentially a bunch of entitled dickheads seeking to cause trouble people demanding details of all state schools and wanting specific analysis and probabilities (when it's against the Law for you to be told 'no fucking chance, mate', as it could put off genuine applicants in breach of the Admissions Code 2021) and you'll find that they just want you off the line so they can get on with their actual jobs.

The system is on its knees. There aren’t the free spaces or empty schools being much publicised, with that in mind, it shows the kind of low intelligence vote grabbing, that has led to Labour encouraging more to join the waiting lists. There needs to be a school expansion plan, there isn’t one I’ve seen? The numbers that underpin lots of current (false) statements Labour has made are incorrect, and have been disproved by two other reports, so both the size of the problem and the costs to fix it have been massively understated. This could easily lead the state system being overwelmed in dense places like cities, where there aren’t spaces in existing classrooms or the funds to build new ones (or extend older sites).

In that case I’ll call each day and encourage others to do the same. Thanks for the steer.

What is the point of that?

If you want to apply then do. The schools will then be able to tell you where you are in their lists.

You may move up or down it as other children join it / children leave the school / children leave the waitlist etc.

Making daily phone calls is completely pointless.

So you are not actually applying for a place but just want information?

How do you know "the system is on it knees" if your child isn't at a state school?

They are separate issues, the VAT is something they can levy immediately, the charitable status requires much legislation to be redrafted and go via the house of commons, so this could take 6 months (or vastly longer).

I do kind of agree with this sentiment, to be fair, in that the state does not treat teachers well and that isn't necessarily a model to copy, but the sentiment was how would cuts be achieved... yes, cuts can be achieved, they may be unpalatable but not impossible.

I guess my wider sentiment is, why is there only hand-wringing because the private sector is (potentially) being asked to do what the state sector has been expected to do for years.

There hasn't been any handwringing over state schools having their funding cut?

Information is of great importance when debates and conversation has become so post-factual. We have paid our taxes and are entitled to a state place if we choose not to pay the VAT. I believe we should be allowed the pertinent details when making such a life altering change. Many are engaging in entirely post-factual threads, without truly engaging with or understanding the consequences of what is playing out. Whether or not we will accept a place or follow through with that remains to be seen. I don’t suppose it would take many requests like mine (and the follow up calls) to overwhelm the already shaky state school/admissions system.

There aren’t any places - only waiting lists. Define your meaning of ‘on its knees’? For me it means things aren’t fully functional, because of funding and a dire shortage of teachers. How damaged does it need to be?

There’s a difference, but the end point is the same, it’s waiting list (whether you have applied or yet to apply) - you will be faced with the same fact: there aren’t any spaces. These are created by one child vacating a class in one school to join another in the borough, thus an extra space hasn’t been created. Do you see?

Also what of the school expansion plan? You haven’t mentioned if you’ve heard the details of these? That’s the reality, we will need to build more, where and at what cost has not been planned or budgeted for. 1.6 billion is an absolute piss in the ocean, we will need billions and billions - and everyone will have to pay for it. Of that you can be certain.

Where are you being charged twice? VAT on private schools is not you being charged twice. VAT is a consumer tax. Do you complain about paying the VAT on clothes or shoes?

Unless you are a fortune teller, you won't know what you will need or use. Nobody plans to be burgled or have their house burn down but they pay for the police and fire brigage anyway.

I have never used the fire brigade or the A828, should I ask for a refund? No, because that is ridiculous.

Birth rates are falling. There are spaces in state schools at the moment for people deciding not to use private schools.

There are spaces at some schools.

“Birth rates are falling. There are spaces in state schools at the moment for people deciding not to use private schools.”

In primary schools yes, in secondary schools no. At least where I live.
Will the Council pay to helicopter a whole lot of London kids across the country every morning from London?

They aren't going to use helicopters. They will use buses and/or expand classes a bit. I don't believe that there are no secondary school places in London or nearby.