It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

So you you can pay for holiday clubs with your 'tax free childcare', but the 20% will just get added on again as VAT?

Pretty much. And that’s if labour keep the tax free childcare. They haven’t shown a comprehensive plan for early years and funding yet.

It’s why I’m sticking with lib dems! (They’re also the tactical vote for my constituency)

Oh I don't doubt that there unfortunately will be special treatment - twas ever thus.

Only around half of private schools have charitable status. Those that do have to meet the requirements Charities Commission.

Charitable status has nothing to do with VAT anyway. It’s an entirely separate issue.

Ha, how did you know I am a pedant?!
Sorry I missed your post.

Are you sure? People can't afford holiday and after school clubs as it is. Why aren't there more protests from working parents? This is going to affect FAR more people than the numbers that will have to leave private school. So not the thousands extra private school parents will pay - but £100s. Do working parents have that money?

It doesn’t make you a communist but it is a hypocritical view unless you have an issue with all other forms of parent-child privilege, like inheritance or helping your kids climb up the property ladder.

You’ve missed
Private schools are full of unqualified teachers who wouldn’t cope in state schools.
State schools will benefit from teachers being made redundant and having to move to the state sector.

Private pupils have to be spoon fed and can’t manage work on their own.
Private pupils will drive up standards if they move to state schools.

Ah just seen your comment. Let us hope it makes a difference.

As a hospital consultant, I went to a school in a deprived area every year to discuss a career in Medicine. I was struck by how many bright kids simply did not think this was a career path for them. They kept asking instead about midwifery, speech therapy, physio etc. Not that there is anything wrong with those careers of course, and goodness we need good clinicians in those areas.

But being a doctor has better pay in the end usually, and is still seen by some as a ‘high status’ job. Yet these underprivileged kids simply could not envision Medicine as a career for them. It was quite depressing really. Still lots of work to be done.

Why does it? I'm not suggesting any child be forcibly enrolled in any school. Their parents still have access to the usual enrollment procedures, waiting lists, appeals, tutors and so on. If there are going to be inaquate schools ( which there shouldn't be), children with means attending them can only be a good thing. Not sure how you can argue otherwise.
Alternatively, perhaps a weekend job might cover the VAT if state provision is so objectionable.

This is the problem with this policy. No one (including the Labour Party) knows how it will work. There will be unintended consequences. It’s a case of being very careful what you wish for. Personally I don’t see that it’s worth taking a risk introducing a policy which will undoubtedly lead to unintended consequences, when the estimated tax revenue is tiny.

@Another76543 People on both "sides" of this discussion do often talk a lot of nonsense. The bottom line is that education is compulsory. Private education is a luxury and should therefore be taxed as such.

Although to be fair, if more private schools had taken their charitable status more seriously (yes,yes I know some do) then they might have been less vulnerable.

That would depend on whether the peri teachers business is vat opted or not - unlikely to change as would imply income of above £80k per annum

A friend of mine recently sent her dd to study medicine at Birmingham. Only 2 in her year were from state school and they were both from grammars. Apparently there is a massive problem with social diversity across medicine schools in the UK.

It’s not just the entry requirements but also the non-academic requirements that are also crazy.

Eg volunteering as an admin assistant for your dad’s GP surgery is sufficient to demonstrate an ‘interest’ in medicine, but caring for and giving injections / planning medicine schedules / negotiating with doctors for your non-doctor parents isn’t. The mcat is also a stickling point - as private schools / grammars give mock tests and prepare dummy runs of medicine board interviews (with the help of parents), while the same parents don’t get involved to benefit students at state comps.

So it’s no wonder many working class kids at state comps don’t try. Most if they do get into medicine usually start in an allied profession.

education is compulsory

This is precisely why at least the basic element of fees should be VAT free.

If more private schools had taken their charitable status more seriously

Only around half of private schools have charitable status. What has that got to do with the VAT question anyway?

I really doubt she earns that teaching in the afternoons. I'm sticking with her as she's excellent and her fees are really reasonable. If they stick an extra 20% on the school music lessons, I think I'll be looking for another teacher for my other DC!

@Another76543
""Only around half of private schools have charitable status. What has that got to do with the VAT question anyway"

Just that it would be good "optics".

Of course I’m sure

The wondering why is also what I’m confused about. Although I think most don’t quite understand the wider impact this VAT change will have.

I even said it in my first comment on this thread. Pretty much all parents will be impacted to some degree

I think 'charitable status' is to do with providing some kind of public good. In this case, education. Sure, it's less relevant than when a lot of these schools opened as education has been nationalised, but their mission hasn't changed.

There are more than two from state schools. I agree that a lot will be from grammars but that is inevitable given many students are from the Midlands which has grammars, particularly Birmingham.

Labour are keeping pretty quiet about that side of things! When the shadow education secretary was interviewed about it, she just kept repeating 'most of your viewers can't afford these schools'. In other words, it's not going to affect the great majority of the public. Why aren't they being challenged on that?

Well of course they are

Just like how the Tories are keeping quiet about the fact their Rwanda plan costs more than housing asylum seekers here

The question as to whether private schools are charities has everything to do with Vat, I'm quite surprised about the lack of knowledge on this.

Charities claim back Vat on all sorts of things and are exempt from Vat in certain areas. So yes it has every relevance.

Education of course is a good, but two lines in your annual return to the charity commission about providing 5 bursaries probably funded by the pta and letting the school down the road use a swimming pool is a hardly that charitable whilst I'm sure it is appreciated. It just does not compare to what real charities do.

But lots of schools don’t have charitable status and, therefore, don’t enjoy the benefits which that brings. The VAT question is entirely separate. Are we saying that those schools which don’t claim charitable status should be penalised through the VAT system because some people think that the charitable schools don’t do enough? There’s no logic to that argument. VAT status has nothing to do with whether your business provides a “public good”. Bakeries don’t have to charge VAT. I’m not sure that we can argue that a cupcake provides a “public good”.

This is the issue though, a basic lack of understanding around the bursaries. My DDs Independant school has 30% of the student population on a bursary of some kind.

and about 10% on scholarships