It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

It was the emphasis on “substandard” that gave you away. Whatever happens we can guarantee these kids will go to schools other kids already attend.

It won't be a problem for state schools in general because as many have already stated, the numbers moving over will small and there are plenty of state places currently unfilled.

The problem is for the individual families affected. Many 'middle class' families make a choice between (a) spending a lot of money and getting a big mortgage to buy a house well inside the catchment area of a top state school or (b) buying a much cheaper house outside of good school catchments, then spending their money on private school. Some families who went for option (b) are now faced with the exacerbated problem of having to withdraw their children from private only to send them to a poorly performing/unfavoured state school. Even if they now move to the catchment of a good state, they may still struggle to get a place if their children are outside the normal entry points e.g. Reception or Year 7.

For the reasons above, I suspect that many families who say they will leave private will actually find a way to cut back and will struggle on with the fees.

"Substandard" was the language used in the post I was quoting. Not my fault you only read what suits you.

Then I assume you think it’s fair to move state school kids into worse schools too, so there’s an even number of places for ex-private kids across a range of state school performance levels?

I don't think that there is any risk that class sizes will go up to 40, given that they are currently around 28-30 in most state schools. Even if all private schools closed, this wouldn't happen.

Also bear in mind that state schools are funded per pupil, so more pupils=more funding. For some schools with low numbers of pupils, increasing pupil numbers might actually increase their access to extracurriculars due to economies of scale.

I don't think it's fair for any child to attend an inaquatr school. "Ex-private" is not a protected characteristic, so no, those children do not require special treatment. Ludicrous suggestion. If their parents wish to choose which state school their children attend, they can do so at the usual times, or join waitlists as anyone would.

It's surprising the conservative party in some senses are not supporting this change.

One of their founding principles is equality of opportunity ... if you know your politics.

So many kids education is clearly NOT an equal opportunity right from the start.

One of the issues here is a fundamental change to taxation on education. Right now in the UK education is exempt from VAT. Rewriting VAT law to tax education makes it much easier to expand to other areas in the future. Labour still have not provided any intelligent comment on whether pupils with SEN and special schools will be exempt - this will be particularly difficult from a VAT rule point of view - as VAT is on the service not the individual, so it's discrimination to charge 2 children in the same school differently even if one has SEN.
I can't see how they will be able to charge VAT on aspects such as food and boarding as these services are ordinarily exempt from VAT so to specifically tax them within private schools (as opposed to university halls or residential adult training) is discriminatory. I would expect schools to parcel out aspects of their services and seek to avoid having to pay VAT on anything not covered but legislation. The new legislation is going to be a bugger to draft and if Labour screw it up there will be years of legal challenges.

There is loads of modelling on this. Dig deep enough and you’ll find it. Outcomes are definitely not black and white. Broadly as I understand it from my husband whose consulting firm has done some of the extensive modelling there could be a minor benefit to the government on balance. But it’s a drop in the ocean for what is needed to plug spending plans and it will cause huge upset and churn for thousands of families (which notably a lot of posters on mum’s net seem to be gleefully waiting for).

Out of interest, what exactly is exempt from VAT in terms of education? I've never quite been able to figure it out. Do we pay VAT on piano lessons? English language lessons?

How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds,

that will not happen because there is no way to fit 40 kids in one room even. There are guidelines what is possible what is not

Labour will not build a new buildings but buy them from private schools. Just as many grammar schools became private decades ago

Obviously the private school parents will ride in through the gates on one of their expensive racehorses shouting “now see here chaps, we demand better!”
The headteachers will cower. The Council will throw money at the school…

😂 Parents are parents. The vast majority are invested in their child wherever they go to school. It is lunacy to suggest that an influx of private school parents and kids is going to change the whole education system and funding.
Like most other parents, they will drop off and collect their kids, nag them about homework and go to the parent’s evening. That’s it.

Baffled by all those that think anything different is going to happen!

And the poster you quoted was absolutely correct about your “gleeful” anticipation of private kids ending up in “substandard” schools. I stand by my original comment.

Isn't it on the invoice?

Charities have this issue. Some aspects of their work they have to charge vat (for example training) and others not. They mange the accounting perfectly fine

I think "revenge" is an interesting choice of word. How do you decide for which children these schools are "revenge" and for which children it's completely OK? What's your selection criteria?

There was an interview with Yvette Cooper where she was asked this question about five times and like a typical politician, refused to answer, and just kept repeating that it was up to private schools to solve the problem. She sounded like a robot and clearly Labour have no real idea how this will work. Its basically a stupid headline policy encouraged by the politics of envy and will backfire.

I’m not sure I understand the maths of this?

From the TES :
“There are 20,778 state-funded primary schools, 27 middle schools, 4,175 state-funded secondary schools or post-primary schools, 2,572 independent schools and 1,609 special or alternative provision…”.

Excluding independent schools and special provision, that’s around 25,000 schools. There are around 550,000 children in private schools. That’s 22 pupils per school - more than 10 times your figure.

No. But where am I asserting confidently that that will happen?!

I don’t think you’ve understood my comment.

I used “ex private” to indicate that I’m talking about the private school kids who’d be losing their school places to move into state - the same group you’re referring to in previous posts, and the subject of this thread.

In any case, if you don’t think it’s fair for any child to attend an inadequate school, and in fact think it’s a “ludicrous suggestion” then why did you say ”I think it’s a good thing. Privileged children being forced into substandard schools”.

You seem to be defending multiple positions.

@OppositeOfProcrastinate To answer your question. Parents do make a difference to a school. Involved and aware parents make excellent governors, and are not afraid to hold the head and senior management team. A school which has lost most of it's top set to private or grammar will benefit from an influx of (presumably) top set types who can (without actually doing anything except just being there so no disadvantage to them) show different ways of approaching work-and life- a critical mass can make a huge difference. Obviously, this only applies to schools that are currently underperforming. Good schools will just carry on being good schools. But maybe with a few more CEOs and surgeons at Career Information Days!

No. Teacher just sends home a note with that term's fees. One of my DC learns in school, and, again, just send me the bill with no VAT info. Will music lessons in private schools also be subject to 20% tax?

Thank you for finally answering where wombat was unable to do so.

So direct help by reading to other children or career talks. And financial contributions to the school. Ok thanks.

You suggested existing state pupils be moved to evenly distribute "ex-private" pupils. Which is indeed a ludicrous suggestion.

The private school parents I know are pretty ordinary. And prioritise their own kids like parents everywhere. I think we are giving them too much credit that they will transform state education but let us see.