It's a private school one.....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Many threads on MN ... I want to know this: why haven't Labour given any info on their modelling of what will likely happen and the different scenarios that could play out when they impose VAT? It matters - because if they get thus wrong ... and a shed load of kids leave private because their families have scrimped to send them there ... the state sector in some councils will quickly be overwhelmed with kids needing state places that does not exist....which could be a lose lose for everyone! You don't build a new school and resource it in a month.... these things take years . I feel for all kids as they will all lose out if this happens and labour having got contingency in place.
How would you feel if your child is in a good state school , perhaps they get some SEND support...and suddenly there is an influx of private kids as they need the spaces. Class sizes go up to 40, all SEND provision gets cut as not enough funds, extra curricular gets cut and teachers are even more stressed, so the vicious circle if teacher shortages now intensifies....the spiral continues for years to come. Who has won?? No one ....
What are your thoughts on this ?
I don't disagree with the principle that private is a luxury and probably should pay VAT... what I disagree with is the notion you can just implement something that will fundamentally shift things on a seismic way in one big bang. No thought whatsoever. Tell me if you agree or have a different view and why ?

Don't you think though that people are very much stereotyping state schools? And in a way completely underestimating their own kids?

See I think it's a good thing. Privileged children being forced into substandard schools might be the push needed to improve things. If it's not, at least those kids will still have other resources at their disposal - they will remain Privileged.

I think there would be more than five children if they move en mass. Regardless they won't be the only ones who are well behaved and academic. The proportion will increase as will the number of parents who are interested in education.

It works out, if ALL private educated children leave and move to state school, at 1.8 child per school.

It’s unlikely that all the children leaving one private school will live in the same catchment for a state school anyway, so it’s not going to have a massive impact on one school. The pupils would be absorbed by whichever schools have spaces in the LA.

The worst thing is that private schools are even seen as ‘needed’. State education should be of a high quality in every area. I don’t believe that all private school families are looking to escape ‘riff raff’ though of course some will be snobs like that.

State education really should be ‘enough’ for most kids. But the threads by state school teachers on MN show that increasingly this isn’t the case. And that’s not of course the fault of the teachers or most families.

Really unpleasant and frankly racist comment.

I would imagine that a school would just move to state patronage rather than house them in already functioning schools?

That's what I was saying earlier, why aren't people raising the roof about what should be free and fit for purpose, rather than squabbling between themselves about the pros and cons of both?

Why do you assume kids from private school would be academic? My DC is well behaved, but not very engaged at all. Finds the whole thing boring and a struggle. Also, kids are easily influenced and want to fit in. Just because they follow the rules at one school, doesn't mean they'll follow the rules at another.

Okay, I give up. You are answering like a politician and evading my question. I cannot bang my head against this brick wall any more. As I predicted, you cannot articulate how exactly the subjective experience of state school pupils will change if private school families join the state sector.

You have been unable to provide any specific examples of how their experience at school will improve if private school kids join the class. Parents ‘being interested in education’ will help their own kids. How will it help the other children?

This says a lot really really.

This is just a revenge fantasy. Privileged children will not take up places in substandard state schools, they will either take up places in oversubscribed state schools knocking out less privileged students, or in cheaper private schools.

It’s feasible that the main result is that cheaper private schools get more popular and marginally better.

I really wish some people would do a little research and use some logic.

State schools won’t be swamped. If 20% leave (which will never happen) then 20% of 7% is 1.4% or about 0.5 pupils/ class. No it won’t be even and the odd school might even close.

But if you know anything about demographics or state school funding, state primaries are closing because of a LACK of pupils, so a middle class influx would be manna from heaven to them.

I don’t have kids in private (nor did I go to private myself) but are you really suggesting these parents should just put up with poorly performing state schools (which I wouldn’t even want my kids in)?

Yes, but if they leave en mass and they are in year 6 or older they will only be offered places in schools with spaces, rather than oversubscribed schools. It won't be an even spread.

I’m interested in what an ideal society looks to you - one where no one earns more than anyone else? No one has a nicer house, car, or lifestyle than anyone else regardless of skills or work ethic? You realize which countries follow this model right…

Or are only certain privileges okay with you?

How can I give an example of something that hasn't happened?. Can you give an example of how private school pupils moving en mass into an underperforming state school has made the state school perform even less well?

The thinking is something like:
Private schools entrench privilege so should be taxed as a luxury
Private schools are a waste of money and the results are no better, so why don't people just leave if they can't pay the tax?
Private schools are full of spoilt, entitled brats and rife with bullying, so their parents should pay tax to send their children there (idiot tax)
Pupils moving from independent to state will improve behaviour and academic standards in the state sector, so it's a good plan to price more families out.
Not very coherent, is it?

Like the rest of us??

So you think the whole of year 6 in a school is likely to leave? I would say it's very very unlikely to happen. Maybe 2 or 3 per school year. And yes, they may not get their preferred school - like the rest of us!

Completely agree with you. I don’t really agree with private schools in theory but have ended up with some children in them because the state schools couldn’t meet their needs which are not exactly complex needs. Not all my children are private though - state is my preferred option and I use private for my children that were being swallowed up whole in state schools and shrinking back into themselves. We will be priced out of private with the Vat and especially so as we will likely have our bursary removed. Currently trying to work out what our options are as putting my children into the school places that are left over is not really an option. I do see that long term reducing private schools is not entirely bad but I am not going to let my children be the ones that have to be sacrificed for a longer term policy.

i would completely blow my cover if I explained fully why private was the only workable option for a few of mine so will have to leave it there

Calling it "revenge fantasy" says more about your attitude than mine. Why is "revenge" to say these kids might have to attend schools that other kids already attend?

No I don't think that is what will happen. Not many will leave at all. The private school parents want the rest of the population to believe there will be a mass exodus though and I'm just saying that if that does happen then they will be given places in schools with places.

@wombat15 ,

As an ex private school teacher and state school governor, I will answer your question.

Involved parents make a tremendous difference to schools. At primary level, many actively help with reading and other activities ; at secondary level they sometimes give assemblies or talks and can be really useful at careers fairs.

Most importantly, a stream of revenue for all schools is voluntary parental contributions. One private school fundraiser can raise hundreds of thousands (normally for new facilities). At some state schools the entire annual revenue stream is circa £10k, in a school where it would make a huge difference.

Did I say there is anything wrong with having privilege? I literally acknowledge that these children will retain privileges.

I know. @OppositeOfProcrastinate was asking the question.